Reviews

Arnold Hano, Wrote about Mays' Catch, Honored at 93

11/15/2015

Check the grip. It comes up in the coda of the documentary.

Nice to be re-discovered.
For many decades, Arnold Hano was one of the best magazine writers in America. He is best known for his slender jewel of a book, “A Day in the Bleachers,” which he wrote on impulse after witnessing Willie Mays’ catch in the 1954 World Series.
But he is so much more than that, a 1930’s guy who still talks about “the social contract” – the relationship between individuals and society.

“He met and talked with Babe Ruth, JFK and John Wayne, saw Mays’ iconic catch, Larsen’s perfecto, and successfully battled racism, land developers, big corporations, and the federal government. says Jon Leonoudakis, a California-based film-maker who was so taken with Hano’s body of work that he has put together a documentary about him.

“His story has flown under the radar of popular culture for nearly a hundred years -- until now,” Leonoudakis added.

Hano is 93 and living in Laguna Beach, Calif., with his wife Bonnie. They have been together for 67 years as he wrote about protecting wildlife from Disney and other developers.

Two baseball stars, Orlando Cepeda and Felipe Alou, testify in the film about Hano’s fair depiction of Latino players.

The Hanos also demonstrated against prejudice in their adopted beach town. And they joined the Peace Corps in their 60’s and built schools in Costa Rica.

The film-maker became entranced with Hano and began interviewing him, with Hano insisting there was no story. (Larry David would play him in the bio-pic.)

Leonoudakis rounded up a gaggle of admiring colleagues (including me) and added an artistic blend of original jazz, original art (not the usual sports schlock) and touching photos, including Arnold and Bonnie Hano, young and old.

The couple was back in New York the other day (at Bergino Baseball Clubhouse) to publicize the documentary. She was there on the second day of Rosh Hashanah, Sept. 29, 1954, when Hano – without any assignment or credential -- decided he would walk to the Polo Grounds for the opening game of the Series between the Giants and Cleveland.

Bonnie Hano, as wives do, told her husband not to be silly. He was never going to be able to walk up and buy a ticket. He did not listen to her, and stood two hours on line and paid $2.10 (he remembers all that stuff) to sit in the bleachers, the left-field side, so he could call balls and strikes from 500 feet away.

He started keeping score -- that’s what people did at ballparks before selfies -- and taking notes in the margin of his paper (The Times.)

Top of the eighth. Tie game. Nobody out. Runners on first and second. Then Willie Howard Mays began running toward Arnold Hano to track down a mammoth drive by Vic Wertz. Hano watched as Mays, arms outstretched, caught the ball as it soared over his shoulder, and then, in one fantastic powerful whirling motion, turned and dispatched the ball to second base, on a powerful arc.
Larry Doby did move from second to third, but Al Rosen had to go back to first because of Mays’ howitzer shot. .
(“Wertz flew to center field,” tersely reports the play-by-play on the invaluable Retrosheet.)

Hano watched the Giants win, 5-2, on Dusty Rhodes’ homer in the 10th. Then he went home and typed up his report, which turned into a small book that did not sell much at first but has become one of the classics of the sport.
I wrote about the book on the 50th anniversary of the Mays catch, in 2004:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/29/sports/baseball/hazy-sunshine-vivid-memory.html?_r=0

Arnold and Bonnie Hano downgrade the book as something short of literature. They do have their opinions, which Hano has injected into the copious details and color and quotes -- one of the best dossiers of sports magazine articles, ever.

Now he has been captured in a knowing 53-minute film. Leonoudakis is seeking space on television and festivals and archives devoted to baseball – and journalism, and America.

The film is film is available on DVD from the film’s website:
http://hanodoc.com/product/hano-dvd/

It is also available for streaming:
www.reelhouse.org/jonleonoudakis

Oh, yes, and check out the cover art (above). It figures in the delightful coda to the documentary. Carl Hubbell. That’s all I’m saying.

Arnold and Bonnie Hano Back in New York, Nov. 13, 2015

Emma link

11/15/2015 12:26:37 pm

Looking forward to seejng the film at Pasadena LIBRARY.

George Vecsey

11/15/2015 06:42:46 pm

Don't miss the end. Jon saved something good. Enjoy. GV

Big Alt

11/16/2015 08:03:00 pm

Mays was one of the too-10 players of all time. The Wertz catch and throw has become iconic, though not his best and not as good as the Mantle catch off Hodges to preserve the Larsen perfecto vs. Brooklyn. Mantle and Yogalah were both superb clutch hitters. Mays Series hitting was undistinguished at best. The scribes of the era were virtually all biased to the NL.. But facts are facts, Mantle hit 18 homers in the Series, Mays zero. Coincidence?

George Vecsey

11/17/2015 08:11:37 am

Al, Berra and Mays getting the presidential medal brings them together in the same sentence.
I remember when I first started covering, first year of the Mets or soon afterward, Ralph Kiner said, casually, just sitting around, that he regarded Frank Robinson as the best clutch hitter in that league, ahead of Aaron (not yet in consideration to break the 714) and Mays and others. He thought Mays could be pitched to....but Robinson would find a way to kill you when it counted. It wasn't a knock...it was a fine point from a wise observer who knew something about hitting. Who didn't love Mays as a player?
I can't remember. Did Berra ever play in a World Series? G

bruce

11/18/2015 01:06:28 pm

mantle was my all time favourite ball player, but he played on better teams than mays did. had a lot more chances and played a lot more games. his batting average was only .257 and he only hit above .300 in three series. also struck out almost 25% of his official at bats.

Big Al

11/18/2015 01:43:46 pm

18 homers to zero, that's pretty strong, no/? Ask Koufax and Gibson if the Mick was any good. Mays hit .239 in four Series appearances.

Big Al

11/17/2015 08:29:26 am

Kiner was right about Frank, though he couldn't lay a glove on Whitey in the 61 Series. Mays was a superb player, but I feared Stretch more in 62.

Yogalah played in 14 Series and got ten rings. Is that any goof?

bruce

11/18/2015 01:09:29 pm

George,

when I was a kid I subscribed to sport magazine. used to enjoy hano's stuff. don't recall how many times I saw his stuff in the nyt or SI.

bruce

11/18/2015 01:53:48 pm

big al,

you might want to read my comment again. where did i say mantle was no good? i explicitly said he was my favourite player--of any era. i also think if he hadn't been unlucky and had kept himself in better shape he might've passed mays in the all time great category. i think most historians rank him behind mays. i didn't say mays would've passed mantle's 18 home runs. it's a simple fact, his team played 12 world series. mays played four and in the last one he was a shell of what he used to be. finally, i didn't mention robinson, but i always use him as an example of a phenomenal ball player who has been forgotten by many fans. tough, combative, only player to win MVP in both leagues and during his career was considered a clutch guy who didn't give an inch nor ask for one.

Big Al

11/18/2015 02:56:27 pm

Read it thanks. Bill James stated Mantle was much better than Mays. Mantle led his team to the Series 12 times in 14 years, an unprecedented demonstration of sheer excellence.

Facts are facts. I agree with your comments on Robby, but he couldn't hit Ford. Mantle hit Koufax and Gibson.

bruce

11/18/2015 03:14:12 pm

al,

he hit gibson in the 1964 series. four for 11 with a homer. also struck out five times, i believe. not sure what i missed with your conviction mantle hit koufax; don't know what he did in all star games, but he only faced him in one world series that i'm aware of. was 0 for six until his last at bat (i think) in the fourth game. i recall he tomahawked a high fast ball out of the park. fanned three times and walked once during his two games vs koufax. hit .143 against him and .133 overall.

amar426 link

3/11/2016 10:51:43 am

Awesome news....

Big Al

11/18/2015 05:06:02 pm

Koufax and Gibson were considered unhittable in the Series. Read McCarver's comments about Mantle. Both he and Gibby were in awe of Mantle and his homer against Gibby went to a spot in left-center never reached by a lefty. Koufax and Rosebero spent their time trying to figure out how to pitch to Mickey hitting right, where he was a .350 hitter. I saw the home run you say Mick "tomahawked". It was launched and I recall vividly Sandy throwing up his arm after contact in awe. The Koufax homer tied Ruth's record. The Gibson blast was Mick's 18th. Recall the earlier blast off of Barney Schultz. Nobody hit when it counted like Mantle.

bruce

11/18/2015 05:32:28 pm

big al,

you've really confused me.

i loved mantle. next to gordie howe, he was my all time sports hero when i was a kid.

i think howe was the most remarkable athlete in a team sport in north american history. 15 goals at 52; top five in scoring for 20 consecutive years etc......

reading your comments makes me wonder how you're interpreting what i've written.

it seems like if i, or perhaps anybody else doesn't agree with your take on mantle you are going to be absolutely relentless in pushing your opinion that he was the best. period.

i haven't seen stats of his average with runners in scoring position or game winning hits.

you said he hit both gibson and koufax. he played one world series against each. not exactly a career's worth of stats. i'm sure there pitchers that he absolutely disMANTLED; i'm sure there were some he couldn't touch the ball against.

he hit .143 in seven at bats with three strikeouts, a walk and a solo home run against koufax. that is not dominating.

he had success against gibson albeit with a bunch of strikeouts.

it's impossible to really project with either pitcher because of the limited amount of at bats against either.

i'm not arguing he awed other players. i'm not saying he didn't hit prodigious home runs. he did both.

he said as great as mays was, maybe better than he was in the entirety of their careers, mays never matched his top few seasons in his prime. i guess 1956 was really what he was talking about.

you can make your points, but don't make it sound like i'm saying mantle was a stiff.

and i've read the stats comparing him to mays. he compares very favourably. however, i have a feeling you'll fight to the death with anybody who doesn't agree 100% with your opinion of the mick.

Big Al

11/18/2015 06:08:19 pm

Bruce, you mystify me. You say you loved Mantle, yet spend your time running him down. But you cannot explain 18 homers nor Mays' zero. Does a catch against Vic Wertz outweigh 18 dingers? I think not and you disagree.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Mays could shag flies. Neither of us know how many homers Mick would have hit if the NL teams qualified more. We can only deal with the reality that Mantle homered off of Koufax and Gibson. Ruth hit 15 and Mantle 18, nuff said.

amar423 link

3/11/2016 10:53:38 am

Great news ...continue...

Gene Palumbo

11/18/2015 10:28:54 pm

Maybe all of you know about this book. But just in case . . . .

The Last Boy: Mickey Mantle and the End of America's Childhood, by Jane Leavy

“This is one of the best sports biographies I have ever read. Beautifully written and thoroughly researched, it reveals with stunning insight both the talents and the demons that drove Mickey Mantle, bringing him to life as never before.” (Doris Kearns Goodwin, Pulitzer Prize winning author of Team of Rivals)

“In sharp detail and graceful style, Leavy cuts through the myth and treats us to a rarely known Mantle: more flawed, more human and more likeable. A terrific read.” (Tom Verducci, Co-author of the #1 bestseller The Yankee Years)

“The only thing about this book that is better than Jane Leavy’s vivid prose is her astonishing reporting. To my knowledge, no one has ever investigated the life of an American athlete with Leavy’s rigor and thoroughness.” (Daniel Okrent, author of Last Call: The Rise and Fall of Prohibition and Nine Innings)

“The Last Boy is stunning. Jane Leavy captures the beautiful, imperfect Mickey Mantle with equal measures of depth and empathy. She finds the buried answers to the riddle of what drove and haunted the Mick.” (David Maraniss, author of Clemente and Lombardi: When Pride Still Mattered)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060883537?ie=UTF8&isInIframe=1&n=283155&redirect=true&ref_=dp_proddesc_0&s=books&showDetailProductDesc=1#iframe-wrapper

bruce

11/18/2015 10:35:29 pm

it was an excellent book. didn't she also write another about Koufax?

Big Al

11/19/2015 08:03:53 am

I am in the Jane Leavy book on Mantle. It's OK to be anti-Mantle. He would have torn up the NL His stats are compelling. Mays was ordinary in the Series.

Big Al

11/19/2015 08:06:46 am

She did and it was terrific.

bruce

11/18/2015 11:01:02 pm

big al,

I posted a final comment but it seems to have disappeared into the ether.
I can't duplicate it, but I never mentioned mays' catch. I was 4 1/2 when he made the play. I recall it because my father's reaction when he caught it.

I never implied or equated mantle's 18 homers being the same as mays' catch. I don't understand your conclusion.

as I said before there aren't enough world series at bats involving Gibson, Koufax and mantle to say definitively who would've done what to whom over a full season or a career as there are with mays' stats, for example, against Koufax.

i'll conclude by mentioning the 1968 season when Gibson had an incredible ERA of 1.12 but lost to mickey lolich in the seventh game of the series. i'm sure most people wouldn't conclude lolich was equal to Gibson, but he beat him in one game--with the help of curt flood. Koufax had the same thing happen to him in his last game with the help of willie davis. one series doesn't prove or disprove anything as far as i'm concerned. mantle was a feared hitter. had some great series and some not so great.

bruce

11/19/2015 08:22:52 am

big al,

i'm not anti mantle.

sigh.

my last word.

bruce

George Vecsey

11/19/2015 09:06:53 am

Good grief. I go on automatic pilot for a few days of grief for that beautiful city and three of my favorite people -- Big Al from Queens (at heart), Bruce from Ontario and Gene from Salvador -- are all carrying on. Well done, lads.
J'ecrirai demain (vendredi)

GV

bruce

11/19/2015 09:32:41 am

george,

you're welcome. big al apparently decided the site needed some pepping up.

bruce

Alan Rubin link

11/19/2015 05:46:41 pm

George-I know how you feel about being on auto pilot. Several weeks ago we visited my daughter’s family in Madison, WI to see our grandchildren play before their soccer seasons were over. I’m still in catchup mode.

Yogi Berra was my favorite ballplayer, but I always admired Mickey for his skill, raw power and determination.

I was at Yankee Stadium when he was almost robbed of a homer by the second baseman, who narrowly missed catching a wicked very low liner. The ball kept rising and landed in the right-center bleachers.

My friend and I once looked up Mantle in the major yearly statics book we all used. Over a ten year period, he was first, second or third in every category that pertained to him. He was first a significant percent of the time.

My wife and I were having a late night, post NYC show, dinner at a Rt, 4 diner in Fort Lee, NJ. There was a couple sitting at the far side of the room from us. When I mentioned to my wife that the man was Mickey Mantle, she asked how I could tell from the back.

“Just look at his neck!” You could see the power radiate.

As someone mentioned, what would he has been like if his knee was sound and he took care of himself?

Big Al

11/19/2015 06:21:17 pm

Well said mate. I take no umbrage when someone disagrees with me, but if I comment about the weather here and I get a response that it's raining in China, there isn't much to say. But how can you argue the Mick wasn't a superb clutch hitter in the toughest situations by telling me he went 4 for eleven and struck out. The argument is simply counterintuitive. What did he do when the chips were down. He was better than Ruth. And it's still raining in China.

bruce

11/19/2015 07:05:19 pm

big al,

this is quite incredible. i don't think i'm obtuse, but maybe i'm wrong.

i didn't say mantle wasn't a good clutch hitter.

my point was, for the umpteenth time it seems, that you said he hit koufax and gibson well.

you said he was feared and mccarver said etc etc. it's possible to be feared and not do well. he certainly had better figures against gibson than koufax in the tiny sample of one world series vs each.

i said he only faced koufax, when it counted, eight times. he was 1 for 7 with a walk, a solo home run and three strike outs. he didn't hit koufax well, but there were only a limited amount of at bats so it was impossible to say anything with certainty.

the same point with gibson, but in the opposite way. he hit .364 and had good stats, but did strike out a number of times in his 11 at bats. again he didn't face gibson enough to make any definite comment about good, bad or indifferent.

i wasn't talking about his entire career. you specifically mentioned hitting koufax and gibson well from the 1963&64 world series.

he hit gibson well but with a lot of strikeouts. he didn't hit koufax well unless .143 is a good average.

he hit 18 home runs which was certainly more than mays' 0. you asked if mays' great catch was better than 18 homers by mantle. t i didn't say anything about mays' catch in my original comment. yet you said something about me saying his catch was more impressive than mantle's 18 homers. mantle's BA in the world series was 41 points lower in the series than the regular season. he might've been a clutch hitter, but his series' BA was not great. you said it was higher than mays' average. i merely said most baseball historians would choose mays over mantle. i don't know if i would. there is a school of thought now that denies there is such a thing as a clutch hitter. i don't know if i agree with it.

in exhausted conclusion, it seems you seize on things i didn't say or infer or mean.

are you being paid to post by mantle's official fan club.

incidentally, i listened to mantle today on mccarver's site, i believe it was. he talked about all sorts of things. i enjoyed the hell out of it. always found him to be an interesting listen. liked mays too, but don't feel the need to listen to him. read his bio tho and enjoyed it.

Big Al

11/19/2015 07:28:21 pm

And it's still raining in China. An unresponsive argument is still unresponsive. 18 homers to zero is.

bruce

11/19/2015 07:49:39 pm

big al,

i give up.

obviously my communication skills have deteriorated so much that i can't make myself understood.

i never disputed 18 home runs were insignificant or mays was a better world series performer than mantle. i never even mentioned his catch until you did.

don't usually have to defend a point of view i don't have or didn't state.

obviously mantle had better world series stats. obviously his team was better than mays' and he had more world series appearances.

obvious mays had a longer career, more hits, more home runs, more rbis, higher BA and more. obviously he played too long.

i did say most historians, and mantle himself, say mays was the better of the two. many think mays was the best all around ball player ever--the mick apparently thinks dimaggio was. he could be right. i love mantle, but i don't think i've ever read or heard anybody say mantle was the best ever--except, perhaps, you.

George Vecsey

11/19/2015 09:38:50 pm

Guys, guys. It's all silly talk. The Dook was better than either of them. GV

bruce

11/19/2015 09:47:43 pm

george,

nice try george.

you'll be under attack soon.

hope we didn't break your concentration for your column.

champs elysees looked nice on the toob tonight. i imagine there must be as many military sorts as there are civilians wandering up and down. i guess i'll know soon enough.

bruce

Indianjobs link

11/20/2015 07:14:57 am

Awesome Information in the post

George Vecsey

11/20/2015 08:06:49 am

Wow. Nobody ever said that to me, ever. Thanks. GV

Josh Rubin

11/20/2015 10:09:59 am

Hi, George,

I just wandered in. I see the two old guys in the corner arguing Mantle v. Mays for hours but I can't seem to order a beer or find the jukebox. What kind of a bar are you running here?

Let me know if you want me to round up some of the long-time residents of my block to back you up on Duke.

bruce

11/20/2015 10:17:38 am

josh,

well, you're partially correct.

there was only one old guy arguing. the other, semi-old, guy was baffled by the whole exchange.

be ready for the charge tho if you start something saying mr snider was anywhere near the mick.

bruce

Josh Rubin

11/20/2015 01:09:15 pm

Bruce, I was just trying to lighten things up. I haven't lived in Brooklyn long enough and I am not old enough to have a claim on the Brooklyn Dodgers. So I wouldn't weigh in myself on Duke's behalf, but I have neighbors who curse O'Malley like it was yesterday.

Gene Palumbo

11/20/2015 10:33:12 am

Alan Rubin:

Do you know who you reminded me of, when you wrote this? “ . . . he was almost robbed of a homer by the second baseman, who narrowly missed catching a wicked very low liner. The ball kept rising and landed in the right-center bleachers.”

The answer – and I bet George has already guessed it – is Roy Campanella. I can still remember some of those home runs of his. His right knee would bend deeply, and he'd hit a line shot which would barely elude the outstretched glove of the leaping third baseman; it would just keep going, up and out, till it landed deep in the left field seats.

Big Al

11/20/2015 10:58:34 am

Bruce is old I guess, but age doesn't guarantee sagacity. I re-watched Mantle's incredibly clutch homer off Sandy this morning, with the Yanks trailing 1-0 in the seventh. The ball wasn't "tomahawked". It was crushed, like the other 17 he hit in the Series. Mays, a great player, hit none. What does this suggest, that Mays was better? Bruce's fave was a bust in four Series. As for the Mick, I cited the only relevant fact, 18 is better than zero. Who cares about K's?

bruce

11/20/2015 12:45:30 pm

big al,

now you're just getting weirder.

sorry, it was 52 plus years ago. my memory was he that tomahawked it, but i looked after your email and he nailed it as he would've had it been tomahawked. in any case, it was out of the park. a home run either way, right. or because my memory as a 13 1/2 old wasn't quite right, does that mean it WASN'T a homer?

i knew the score was 1-0 before the homer. i know the dodgers swept the yankees and mantle was two for 15.

and my original comment was not about world series' games. it was that mays is generally considered the better all around player--as mantle himself said.

where i did i say or infer that mantle didn't hit 18 homers, mays was a better world series performer or mantle choked in the clutch?

where did i say, or infer, as you did that mays' famous catch in the 1954 series somehow cancelled out mantle's 18 homers?

and i was very very very clear that mantle was my favourite ball player of any era. also, behind gordie howe, my favourite athlete of all time.

finally, if you want facts, you said he hit koufax and gibson. i pointed out that both only pitched to mantle in one world series.

and, as i've said, AD NAUSEUM, you can hardly draw any long term conclusions when he faced koufax eight times in his career and gibson barely into double digits.

in most worlds going one for seven as the mick did against koufax. is not owning or having great success against a pitcher.

going four for 11 against gibson does not guarantee he would've hit .364 if he faced him 100-200 times in a career. he might've hit less, he might've hit more.

your conclusions, based on about 20 ABs against, probably, the two best pitchers of their era can't proven or disproven.

you're getting kind of irrational al. you're misrepresenting what i said.

you're kind of fanatical about my favourite baseball player of all time. however, he wasn't god.

bruce

bruce

11/20/2015 12:52:37 pm

oops. switched he and that in the second paragraph. hope that isn't definitive proof that i believed mays was better than the mick in world series appearances....

bruce

11/20/2015 01:13:49 pm

josh,

yes. i know.

i was too when i said big al would be after you.

also, many many posts ago when i said big al was trying to pep up the site.

i don't mind the back and forth, but would like it based on what i actually said or believe.

bruce

Big Al

11/20/2015 01:34:39 pm

Weird is weird and using irrelevant stats and tortured reasoning is a flawed approach and indeed weird B-man. You did not remember Mantle's homer off Koufax and described it as if you were there, instead of dreaming. How many times will you talk about Mays' catch and fail to mention Mantle's better one to preserve Larsen's perfect game. What are you going to tell me next, the number of times Mickey popped up in BP?

bruce

11/20/2015 01:54:12 pm

big al,

are you ok or have you had some sort of problem?

you said mantle hit koufax and gibson. he was 1 for 7 against koufax. is that an irrelevant fact given your comment on how well he hit both of them?

as i said several times. basing anything--good or bad--on two games against koufax and three against gibson is foolish.

again, i never said or inferred i was there. i, along with millions of others i assume, saw it on tv. also, i didn't say it was a single or double. i remembered it as being higher in the strike zone.

i also didn't mention mays' catch as being equal to mantle's 18 home runs. you did. i said i remembered it when i was almost 4 1/2 because of my father's reaction. i don't remember the actual catch at the time, but have certainly seen it countless times whenever defensive gems of world series are recalled. i have seen mantle's too. it was a great catch, but i believe most people would be more familiar with mays' grab.

you feel mantle's catch was superior. that's obviously your subjective opinion. i would say you're in the minority. that isn't too say it wasn't a great catch. however, it seems if somebody disagrees with you, the bludgeon and misrepresentations come out.

i'm tired of defending things i didn't say or infer.

you have completely ignored my question of why you continue to say mantle hit koufax well when he, in only seven at bats--a small sample, had one hit for a .143 average.

what sort of fixation do you have on mantle to think i'm bad mouthing him? i agreed he hit gibson well but pointed out he also had 5Ks in relatively few at bats and three against koufax in fewer at bats. doing those stats from memory but i think they're right.

why don't you explain on going 1 for seven is being successful against somebody?

also, your comprehension seems a bit shaky. you'd think i hated mantle the way you twist what i've said.

Big Al

11/20/2015 02:35:30 pm

Sorry but I cannot analyze irrelevant questions. Mantle' homer off Sandy stands by itself, glad you finally watched it. I'm not interested in bigoted writers'' belief that the Mays catch was better. The WS films tell the story. Tortured reasoning and irrelevant facts can only lead to a tortured conclusion. The relevant facts are as follows: Mickey hit 18 in the Series, Ruth 15 and Mays zero. This strongly suggests that Mantle hit superbly in the clutch and Mays did not. How many times they grounded to short is useless trivia. My faculties are unimpaired and I will not respond in kind.

big al

11/20/2015 03:00:37 pm

big al,

this has been a surreal exchange.

you're taken all sort of things i didn't say or think and you ran with them.

one hit in seven at bats--homer or not--is not evidence he 'hit' as in had the best of koufax.

nobody could deny mantle hit well in his last world series. nobody could deny he also fanned a lot in proportion to his at bats. i don't know if he struck out with the bases empty, loaded or in between, but he struck out five times. whether they were 'clutch' at bats? i don't know.

the homer i mentioned mantle hit off koufax was only wrong in the type of swing remembered after 52 plus years. the fact it was a home run was not. it was still his only hit in seven official at bats.

then you inferred that i said or wrote i was at the game. i did no such thing. i said i remembered seeing it. i also remember seeing about every game jim brown ever played. YET I NEVER SAW HIM IN PERSON. IT WAS THRU THE MIRACLE OF SOMETHING CALLED TELEVISION.

what the hell does bigoted writers' belief mean?

they didn't like caucasians, they didn't like the NYY, they didn't like natives of oklahoma, they didn't like switch hitters, they were all black?

i knew the home run totals. they were never disputed. i never said mantle's 18 homers were less than mays' one great catch. you somehow came up with me saying or inferring that when i did no such thing.

you think mantle's catch to preserve larsen's perfect game was better. it was a great grab. however, it is a subjective opinion whether or not it was the greatest. the consensus is that mays' catch was in the greatest until that time and perhaps since.

who said anything about pop flies in batting practice or grounding out to short?

i didn't. you did.

it was,again, surreal to try to make me sound like i hated mantle or preferred mays to him. i made it very clear that i--and virtually every kid i knew who followed or played baseball--revered the mick. some of my friends might have been fans of other teams, but everybody loved mantle.

it was the same with koufax. i loved the yanks, but koufax transcended his team. loved by all i knew.

as for gibson. he was astounding. his competitiveness and skill were breathtaking. that 1.12 ERA in 1968 might be the greatest feat by a pitcher in modern baseball. his teammates musta stunk to make him lose nine games. lowering the mound was hitters' last chance to compete.

bruce

Big Al

11/20/2015 05:06:53 pm

You're a real beauty. I too loved Koufax. When you frame arguments, they need a structure. Many fans support Mays in the argument based upon career stats, I never heard even the most ardent NL fan argue that in their primes Mays was better. And of course, he wasn't, despite Mickey's innate modesty. Ho one will ever break his HR record in the Series. What more need be said?

bruce

11/20/2015 05:38:10 pm

big al,

you frame arguments i never made.

you also seem to think there was some NL conspiracy amongst writer--that needs explaining.

when i was a kid, as i said, i loved the yankees. also rooted for the AL in the series and all star games.

the yankees might've been the best team year after year. the NL kicked their butts in all star games all over the place when i was a kid.

mantle was the best of all time because, i guess, you said so. his catch was better than mays' was because you said so.

where did i say anything about mantle's home run record not being broken?

mantle was a modest guy, but he said he thought he was better than mays for a few seasons. however, he said, over a career mays was better. and mantle didn't say mays was the best ever. he named dimaggio.

and it was you who said mantle 'hit' koufax. yet you never explained how 1 for 7 is a dominating performance.

i asked you to explain this comment which, to say the least, begs to be explained or answered. you didn't.

...... I'm not interested in bigoted writers'' belief that the Mays catch was better......

i've looked at several best ever polls. sporting news in the late 90s had ruth 1, mays 2 and mantle 17.

you take your opinions and state them as facts. mantle's 18 home runs are a fact, but you introduced some bogus point about my non existent equating of mays' one great catch with mantle's entire world series career.

you said mays only hit .239 in world series performances. you seem to think mantle's 18 home runs trump everything--and they do if you use home runs AS everything. however, his .257 batting average is not a phenomenal figure.

in any case, you're determined to push your point that my favourite baseball player was the best ever. i agree he was great. the best.....i don't think so.

Jon Leonoudakis link

11/25/2015 05:56:05 pm

Arnold Hano's perspective on Mays vs. Mantle is at this link. Go to 6:12 in the clip. https://vimeo.com/144055680

Big Al

11/20/2015 06:18:52 pm

You frame questions never asked on account of lack of relevance. My arguments are logical however you come out on their answer. No need to research how many K's Mays had in hitting .239 with no power. His performance, like Mantle's, speaks volumes for itself.

bruce

11/20/2015 06:37:13 pm

you threw out mantle hit koufax and gibson. one for seven is hitting well in your world? i never said mantle had no power. he never failed in the clutch when he hit .257? i'm not saying mays was better in the world series. point out where i said he was. again, and i repeat myself because you just keep on repeating yourself. the mick hit 18 homers so that's it?

you made a odd comment about mays' catch and mantle's homers. where did i say the catch surpassed mantle's body of work in the world series?

what is your NL writers bias thing? you throw this half baked stuff out there and it lands with a thud. you believe it so no explanation is needed.

so you have to denigrate mays to make mantle seem better than he already was. the regular season stats and careers are not important? if so, why did mantle once say he wished he hadn't played as long because his regular season average dipped below .300. if the regular season wasn't important, why would he care?

and PLEASE explain this..... I'm not interested in bigoted writers'' belief that the Mays catch was better......

what does 'bigoted writers' mean? who and why?

again, i guess you say it--ipso fact--it's so....

that is a very strange comment and has what to do with what?
.

George Vecsey

11/20/2015 06:38:39 pm

Lenny Dykstra was better than both of them, also.

bruce

11/20/2015 06:40:55 pm

george,

you might regret that remark.

how's the paris column coming?

bruce

George Vecsey

11/20/2015 06:42:46 pm

Plus, this conversation is fun. When I was a young reporter at Newsday, two guys from the paper got into an argument (after closing hours) about whether one of them had hit against Whitey Ford in the Eastern League in 1950, or something. The other guy went to the old Baseball Guides for that year. When it got to "Maybe you played under an assumed name?" I had to physically intercede -- in the office, with sharp spikes and scissors and typewriters. So this is fun. Exercise., GV

George Vecsey

11/20/2015 06:43:51 pm

How can I write when you two guys are making a rumpus down at the end of the bar?

bruce

11/20/2015 06:52:54 pm

George,

I think I've had one glass of wine in the past year.

drinking water now.

he's the rowdy one.

bruce

Big Al

11/20/2015 07:06:24 pm

You're a funny guy, almost Seinfeldian. Try a pint of vodka to mellow you out. George and I have been friends for over 30 years. I'll use him as my reference. Chill it out Kramer.

bruce

11/20/2015 07:11:39 pm

big al,

i'm fine. i just think you threw out some strange comments.

NL conspiracy writers, bigots and mays' catch?

not sure i'm the seinfeld character.

bruce

bruce

Big Al

11/20/2015 07:51:19 pm

George Costanza?

bruce

11/20/2015 07:53:12 pm

big al,

to your steinbrenner?

bruce

Big Al

11/20/2015 08:18:48 pm

If the shoe fits.

bruce

11/20/2015 08:23:30 pm

not sure whose shoe fits me but it isn't george's. you'll have to decide yourself if steinbrenner's (or larry david's) fits you.

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12/21/2015 01:35:20 am

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