Reviews

Nothing Wrong With Being a Tough Out in Hall Voting

1/7/2013

   (FOR REACTION TO HALL VOTE, PLEASE SEE BELOW)
First of all, voters owe nothing to the baseball industry to create good will by voting in a few new members of the Hall of Fame to brighten up the dark of winter. This is baseball’s mess. Why vote for those guys right now?

Messrs. Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, Sosa and McGwire are a collective symptom of all that went wrong with baseball in the past generation. Management did not want to know why the players had new muscles on their muscles – even when a reporter like Steve Wilstein spotted the evidence sitting there in McGwire’s locker.

And the Players Association was fighting off drug rules and drug testing on the spurious grounds of individual rights. I’ve often wondered what became of Donald Fehr.

Tyler Kepner has a great point in the Monday New York Times: some good candidates may be held back by association with their place and time.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/07/sports/baseball/baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-unfairly-tainted-by-steroids.html?ref=baseball&_r=0

Tyler makes the point that the Times does not let its employees vote for any award, sports or show business. Since I still write for them occasionally, I don’t vote. The paper quite properly does not want its people to be part of the story for taking some eccentric vote.

However, if I did vote, I would be a strict constructionist. This year, five players with the best statistics are handcuffed together in a squad car of suspicion and evidence and admission.

As somebody who has told the very nice sons of Roger Maris and Gil Hodges that I do not quite think their fathers were Hall of Fame players, I could make the same judgment about Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly and Lee Smith. Too many really good players in the Hall right now.

And a lot of really good players eligible this year.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2013.shtml

There is no tangible evidence against Mike Piazza. His career numbers seem worthy of the Hall. Wait a year.

Edgar Martinez may have been the best designated hitter in history. But designated hitter is still a gimmick in my opinion. It means he didn’t play defense most of the time. Wait a year.

Jeff Bagwell has the statistics but is generally suspected of bulking up. I don’t know. Wait a year.

Curt Schilling? Great post-season statistics. Wait a year.

Craig Biggio? He played three positions – very impressive – and has excellent longevity numbers – but was not necessarily the most feared hitter on his own team. Wait a year.

It’s really baseball’s fault we have this attitude about the past generation.

If you told me I had to vote for one player, I’d vote for Jack Morris, because he won big games for a long time, and is running out of eligibility.

There are historic considerations – “time’s winged chariot hurrying near,” to quote Andrew Marvell in a baseball column.

Pete Rose was a Hall of Fame player, absolutely, but he hurt himself by betting on baseball as a manager, and then he lied. Pete belongs in the Hall, somehow, sometime. He also loved the game, and gabbed about it incessantly with fans and reporters and other players, sitting in Sparky Anderson’s office. Bud Selig could declare that Pete broke the rules and lied – his plaque could say so -- but as a player, what a force Rose was, and versatile, too.

No doubt in my mind Bonds and Clemens were cheats as well as creeps. As time moves on, more voters could reason they were great players before they took the stuff. I can see voters including them in the Hall, but surely not now.

    (MY SATURDAY COMMENTARY ABOUT THE VOTE:)

I had lunch Friday with a dozen friends who write about baseball – not beat writers, but people who follow the game just as closely. Some had wanted a Morris or Biggio to get into the Hall, but nobody seemed surprised by the shutout. It’s more than pique. It’s respect for the game.

Tyler Kepner (who was not at lunch) recently proposed a panel of 36 voters, including nine Hall of Fame players.
            http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/09/sports/baseball/baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-process-must-change.html?_r=0

Tyler’s got a good point, but I’ll bet you the old players would have higher standards for inclusion than the writers, particularly if the vote were secret. They would be really tough on anybody suspected of using stuff. Even if the Hall panelists used “red juice” or “greenies” back in the day. You think not?

I don’t think there was one truly great – and clean -- player of the Ruth-Mays-Koufax level who was excluded on Wednesday. You know what we used to say back in Brooklyn? Wait til next year.

Your comments welcome below.

Brian Savin

1/7/2013 03:01:05 am

Brilliantly argued. Shouldn't have to be argued at all, but does. These days sport has been extensively devalued. Even baseball. It's considered nothing but business. Owners, et al talk about the quality of the "product" as much as "team" or "player." So, a Hall vote is nothing but marketing to this crowd. Just business and otherwise meaningless.

Why don't Times writers and fans start a "super" Hall of Fame for baseball -- totally unauthorized but maybe more meaningful? I know of a bunch of pedestals and busts (we could rework) at the abandoned American Hall of Fame on the former NYU Bronx campus. Let's move them to Hudson County Park in Bayonne, Abner Doubleday's hometown, and rename each for a "real" great ballplayer. Keep the numbers down and quality up. Should character count? What do you do with Ty Cobb or Pete Rose? If they're in, you go from "G" to a "PG" rating for the place, I think.

george vecsey

1/7/2013 07:25:30 am

Brian, life itself is PG, at best.
After the garbage at tv directed at them, kids can handle conversations about real life like Penn State - Mr. Lance - Clemens-Bonds-Rose, Michael Vick, etc.
GV

Ed Martin

1/7/2013 10:20:34 am

On target as usual. Piazza was not a great thrower, but hitting, including leader in Homeruns, should get him in, but not first year. It is emotion in a guy who admired him so much, but Gil Hodges should be in in my book. Wonderful fielder, power hitter, albeit not for average, and all around quiet leader.

Rob

1/7/2013 11:10:13 am

Personally, I think they should have a moratorium on voting for players of the "Steroid Era".... say 20 years. The length of delay isn't the point. It's a distinction put on all players of that era that may or may not have taken PEDs, or knew those that did, and said nothing. It's a distinction put on MLB and MLBPA for standing by, counting revenue or boosting salaries, and doing nothing.

P.s. Why would you vote for Morris now? If he wasn't good enough for all these years, why say he is now?

P.p.s. Why not vote for Edgar? Why punish him for the AL instituting the DH? It was a position that his team needed to fill, 162 games a season, and he did it.... and did it very, very well.

Michael Berman

1/7/2013 12:31:20 pm

For once, I don't understand your reasoning.

Why wait a year for Piazza, Martinez, Bagwell, Schilling, and Biggio? It's been seven years. Is your evaluation of them going to change in a year? Or do you just want to humble them a little? If they deserve to be in, vote them in. If they don't, don't. My philosophy has been, "if you have to think about whether someone belongs in the Hall," he doesn't. That's not to say there should be only one year of eligibility -- in or not. Opinions can change over time. Maybe your opinion about Gil Hodges will.

You said Pete Rose belongs in the Hall. What about Shoeless Joe?

George Vecsey

1/7/2013 02:46:19 pm

Dear Michael Berman and friends: You caught my inner petulance and perhaps irrationality. I think the irony is that the class of yakkers like myself (whether I vote or not) now has the say on whether that generation gets in the Hall. Maybe it's the last gasp of power of the printed sporting press. I'm all for it. I say, wait a year, but can work up sentimentality for Morris -- who was close last time. (see Tyler's excellent column.) I agree with the Berman philosophy. That powers my own reactions. Joe Jackson knew about a gambling plot in the WS. He may have made a bad throw...hit well enough for sure. More innocent players than Jackson were incriminated.,Ted Wms' support for Jackson was heartfelt. Complicated. Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments -- more welcome. GV

Andrew

1/8/2013 02:05:03 am

I assume, 5 years after he retires, you will be pushing for writers to ignore Derek Jeter for the Hall of Fame, right? He was never the most feared hitter in his lineup, perhaps rarely in the top 4 most feared hitters in his lineup. He has never been anywhere near the defender Biggio is. So not a hall of famer, right?

George Vecsey

1/8/2013 03:25:56 am

I hate it when readers are more knowledgeable and logical than I am. No, I love it.
Andrew, thanks, my comments were in the context of this vote, this year, this past generation, and the theme that came spilling out was "Wait a year." Probably unfair to a few people I might actually vote for, if I voted.(Some writer pals, over lunch, took a poll. I think I raised my hand for Morris and Martinez...can't remember Biggio.) Your apt question puts me in the position of sounding like a New Yorker (which I am) and a Yankee fan (never). Ten years from now, when Jeter ("I'm fine") is eligible, I think I would vote for him, right away. He has been greater than the sum of his parts. (I'm not a new-age stats guy.) But if you want to go logical on me, and link Biggio and Jeter, I'd have to vote for Biggio even in my current pique, because I saw so much of Jeter, and know he is a first-ballot H of F player. Thanks for the comment.. GV

academic writers link

10/31/2013 12:30:22 am

The real sin against life is to abuse and destroy beauty, even one's own even more, one's own, for that has been put in our care and we are responsible for its well-being.

Brian Savin

1/9/2013 12:32:06 am

Pennington's article in today's Times puts the questions squarely, although I think he may well be misperceiving the role and hold of the older baseball stars in their own time. I still believe starting over with the Hall is a very good thing.

Alan Rubin link

1/11/2013 04:24:26 am

My initial thought when I read George's comments on the baseball's Hall of Fame was-"who cares?".

Obviously, many people do based upon the yearly attendance at Cooperstown and all the print that the almost yearly selections generate. Pennington's NYT article was reproduced in the English language Tribune.

I was never enamored of the Hall of Fame, even when I was an avid baseball fan in my youth, the 40's, 50's and 60's. However, I devoured books on the early years of basball starting from the late 1800's to the 1930's. What a colorful cast of characters as well as bizarre incidents. My favorite is whenWalter Johnson struck out the side toend a game without throwingany pitches. As Pennington indicated, many of themwere far from being desireable representitives of decent society.

Each generation of fans remember their faforites whether they are in the Hall of Fame or not. Jeter will always be remembered as a class player regardless of what the baseball writers do in the future.

Ed. Martin

1/11/2013 12:34:14 pm

Just because I am argumentative, Starting at age 25 Gil Hodges hit 22 or more home runs for 11 years. In that period he hit 30 or more for a stretch of six out of seven years. Top fielding stats, too. Fairness dictates that BB reference shows players with similar stats not in. HOF. Team leadership not quantified, however. Cheers

George Vecsey

1/12/2013 01:01:49 am

Alan, welcome back. Hope you had a good trip.
Ed, I consider Hodges one of the finest people I met covering sports. If I were an athlete, I would have loved to play for him but in judging Hodges as a player, I have to consider a .273 BA as well as power and defense. He was one of the heroes of my childhood. Oy. GV.

Mike C

1/12/2013 06:18:01 am

Thanks as always George for the opportunity to think about a topic like this. Charlie Hustle deserves a plaque in Cooperstown, he was some player, he is and has paid for his sins after that..
I wish I could have met Gil, but I did bowl in his Bowling Alley in Brookyn!
Amazing how the blinders were worn by all during those 'roid years and now amnesia sets in.Quantity over quality.
Clemens and Barry can continue their romances with themselves, if they never get in, the doors will stay open in Cooperstown.
Gossage needs a new schtick too, come down off the cross, we need the wood Goose.
Craig Biggio would be a nice addition.
Thanks for mentioning the great Roberto Clemente in your New Years post. What an arm out of that RF Corner.

Alan Rubin link

1/12/2013 06:41:23 am

Hi George,

Thanks for the kind thoughts. The family Israel trip exceeded out expectations, but I won't be home until the evening of January 14th.

We knew that all of the days in Israel would be start early end with late night discussions. We had arranged the trip, which had included time with friends, relatives, former Jerusalem Foundation colleagues of my wife and dinners with a Palestinian couple.

So we decided to spend a relaxing week in Paris on the way home before our crazy "retirement" schedules resume.

There were so many unusual highs throughout the Israel trip, including conversations with individuals of all political persuasions.

The only negative was that we left, much to our dismay, with the feeling that the time for a two-state solution (and long-term peace) had passed.

On interesting topics that do not affect much, but do add to our enjoyment, I concur with Mick C. I would add Cliff Mapes to the corp of right fielders with great arms. I saw him hit home plate on the fly from deep right-center at Yankee Stadium.

Ed Martin

1/13/2013 07:56:56 am

Apropro of nothing, or as Jimmie Cannon used to write, "Nobody Asked Me, but..."

Texas A& M is really making waves in SEC football and basketball. Best times since Bear Bryant left.l

A.G. Sulzberger did a good job reporting the Hang Glider distance record.
Kevin Garnett is identified by Harvey Araton as a "cereal trash talker." Just as I was ready to pounce....it turns out Garnett attacked Melo with words about "Honey Nuts Cheerios.,
Knicks with guard trouble,, age, injury, sleeping on defense. What ever happened to that kid from the Ivy League?

Brian Savin

1/13/2013 12:32:16 pm

George's apparent idea of having Hall membership determined by great players impresses me as worthwhile, yet presumes you have a good starting point. Do you start from current live members? Do you start from scratch somehow?

I have an intuition that this suggestion would work well, yet I can't explain why cogently yet. For example, it impresses me that it would work differently and more successfully for players than it does for, say, sportswriters and broadcasters who vote themselves into the sportswriters/broadcasters hall of fame. Maybe the "retirement rule" is the difference between the two organizations. Halls are very much worth having, I think, so long as they are perceived as credible and self-policing.

George Vecsey

1/14/2013 01:10:33 am

Tyler had another good column, proposing changes in Hall voting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/09/sports/baseball/baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-process-must-change.html?_r=0
I bet that nine Hall members would be tough on drug suspects, even if they used "red juice" or "greenies" back in the day.
As newspapers fade, there will be fewer actual journalists at the ball park, who know how the game works, even if by osmosis. Bloggers and stat people out there in Webland don't necessarily get the game from the people who work in it.
The voting for the writer and broadcaster awards (technically not the Hall of Fame per se) is partially a lodge function. That needs to be remembered. Still, I get a kick out of seeing honorees I knew when I was breaking in -- giants or lifers, ultimately it merges. GV

Alan Rubin link

1/18/2013 06:16:51 am

George,

Tyler Kempler's concept of fewer voters who are more diversified and better qualified is a sound basis for the HOF selection process. Adding umpires to the mix could add some objectivity.

College soccer referees in the 1950's submitted the names of the top three players as well as any All-American candidates to a central committee after each game. I do not know if there were other sources of input, but referees are very close to the action and and in a position to observe excellent play.

MLB umpires are similar to soccer referees in that they are trained to enforce the rules and insure control of the game. Since their careers are usually long, players would have been observed over a significant period of time and good performances would be recorded daily.

Since there are not any statistical guidelines for entry to the HOF, voters may have widely varying criteria for their selections.

The HOF originated in 1939 when Stephen Carlton Clark, an owner of a local hotel which had been suffering economically when the Great Depression significantly reduced the local tourist trade and Prohibition devastated the local hops industry, sought to bring tourists to Cooperstown. I may not be correct, but I have the sense that much of its growth was on the fly without much planning when it came to voting. Over time, the HOF brand has been well marketed and enjoyed by many.

In addition to the method of selection of its members, should any other aspects of the museum also be review?

Gene Palumbo

1/14/2013 03:42:24 pm

Just to let you all know that George has a column in today's Times, "They Left Their Hearts at Coogan’s Bluff."
www.nytimes.com/2013/01/14/sports/baseball/giants-left-their-hearts-at-coogans-bluff.html

George Vecsey

1/19/2013 02:34:33 am

Abe Schear, one of the most knowledgeable writers about baseball, has this opinion about the Hall and baseball's relationship with steroids:
http://webforms.agg.com/SnapshotFiles/ea8afba1-5e87-4c60-a5b4-b2d75c45ca4f/Subscriber.snapshot?clid=3073e799-8800-41ed-b0ae-36c681250567&cid=acadd43c-34b0-4e24-92f8-fffdef993948&ce=D3lFejFiHr2zStRdlqQ3%2bCrjLNQFq2KM

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Nothing Wrong With Being a Tough Out in Hall Voting

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