Reviews

Talking About Sports Shrines

5/6/2020

NB: Please save your best stuff about resumption of BB/Soccer, seasons, etc.. I am planning a piece on this by midweek when the plot thickens some more. Best, GV
* * *

Last week I wrote about missing the Kentucky Derby – the place, the season, the event itself.
Some readers mentioned other grand sports sites and events – Jim Nabors singing at the Indy 500, walking into Yankee Stadium (or almost any other ball park) and seeing the green grass, a day trip to Saratoga during “the season.”

I wracked my brains about sports places I have visited:
--Ebbets Field in 1944, when I was 5 and my dad took me to an off-season bond drive event.
--My first assignment to Notre Dame football in 1964, remembering a nice man up the block when I was a kid, who took me to see a few live Notre Dame games in a movie house in Flushing, and told me proudly about having been on a great Notre Dame team and never, ever, getting into a game.
--Azteca Stadium in Mexico City in 1986, feeling the place physically rock when El Tri was on the move – the appeal of any home team during the World Cup, but particularly for our neighbors to the south.

That was just three off the top of my head. Last night I remembered going to the Montreal Forum in 1984 and getting a tour from Camil DesRoches, the grand old publicist of Les Habs. Camil was old school – suave, bilingual, mustached, loved the cultures of Canada plus the U.S. He implanted the lore of Les Habs in my brain, so I wrote about it.

I kept up with Camil for many years after. He would send me cassettes, particularly of Montreal’s chanteuse, Danielle Oddera, and her duets and interpretations of Jacques Brel. Nowadays, the Forum is a cineplex; my friend Camil DesRoches passed at 88 in 2003; I still treasure my visit to this home to a great team, a great culture.

Please write about a sports shrine in your life:
* * *
My column from 1984:

SPORTS OF THE TIMES; FIRST VISIT TO THE FORUM
By George Vecsey

April 27, 1984

MONTREAL ''I TRY to be impartial about such things,'' Camil DesRoches was saying, ''but I honestly think this was the greatest hockey team of all time.''
He pointed to a color photograph on his office wall, a picture of the Montreal Canadiens who won their fifth straight Stanley Cup 24 springs ago. His total impartiality was tempered not in the slightest by his being employed by the Canadiens for the past 46 years.
Camil DesRoches spent yesterday morning escorting a greenhorn on his first visit to the Forum, a pilgrimmage somewhat akin to the first visit to the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem, or St. Peter's in Rome or Westminster Abbey in London: the feeling of closeness to the soul of a people.
''I always say that hockey is like a religion here in Quebec,'' Camil DesRoches was saying. ''We are perhaps 90 percent Catholic, but we are all hockey fans.''

Camil DesRoches is a classic Gallic gentleman, nearly 70 years old, with a thin mustache and a large heart. He loves his wife, he loves Broadway musicals (he saw ''Oklahoma'' 26 times), he loves wine (''We have never had a bottle of milk in my house, and I still have all my teeth''). But just as strongly, he loves the Canadiens, and he loves the Forum, for which he is now the publicity director.
He was conducting the tour on a day of both sadness and anticipation. Yesterday morning, there was a funeral for Claude Provost, a member of the five-time Stanley Cup champions, who died on a tennis court in Florida last week. Later in the evening, the current Canadiens would work on stopping the Islanders from winning a fifth straight Stanley Cup.
The Islanders were taking a brief workout as Camil DesRoches led the visitor into the stands. Outside, on a perfect spring morning, the Forum seemed an ordinary brick building, surrounded by traditional Montreal tenements with their dark fire escapes. But inside, the Forum seemed a holy place, where one lowered his voice.
On the morning a Canadien was being buried, it was not hard to remember that in this building in 1937 the body of the great Howie Morenz was put on public display after his death from complications following a broken leg (suffered, as the history books always say, when he crashed into the boards on the St. Catherine Street side of the Forum). The Forum was filled with 15,000 people, yet it was as silent as a cathedral.
Yesterday the Forum's lower red seats glistened, as if painted five minutes earlier, and so did the middle white and upper blue sections, forming a classic tricolor. The stands of the Forum are oval-shaped, following the shape of the rink itself, just as the best bull rings and soccer stadiums of Europe are tailored for one sport, rather than multi-purpose arenas not quite right for any sport.

''There used to be eight columns,'' Camil DesRoches was saying. ''So in 1968, we rebuilt the Forum completely in five and a half months months, leaving only the seats. Look how narrow they are. But nobody complains, because we get more people in that way, 16,400 seats in all.''
From the rafters hang 22 banners, signifying
the club's Stanley Cups, 20 of them won since
the Forum opened in 1924.
''The best game I ever saw here?'' he said. ''Maybe in 1936, when the Maroons beat Detroit in six overtimes when Mud Bruneteau scored. I got home at 2:25 AM. Or maybe it was Dec. 14, 1965, when our so-called amateur club beat the Russians using Jacques Plante, who had just left the Rangers a few months earlier.
''Or maybe it was March 23, 1944, when Maurice Richard scored all five goals to beat Toronto, 5-1, and they named him all the top three stars of the game. Or what about the game in 1979, when Boston got a penalty in the last minute and Lafleur and Lambert scored to win it?''
The pucks from the Islanders' target practice started slamming into the shining red seats, so Camil DesRoches continued the tour. He pointed out Le Salon des Anciens - the Old Timers' Room - where former Canadiens are welcome.
The Canadiens are noted for their propriety, including a private room for the wives of the players. Only recently have patrons been allowed to carry beer to their seats, an experiment that would end at the first abuse.
In the lobby, two escalators form the pattern of crossed hockey sticks, a sight Ken Dryden, the retired goalie, always found compelling. Nearby, is the Pantheon of Montreal hockey, the plaques of 30 players and coaches from Quebec who had their best years wearing the bleu, blanc, rouge.

Near the entrance is Le Club de Bronze, 11 bronze busts of journalists and broadcasters considered to be friends of Montreal hockey. The 12th bust is of Camil DesRoches.
''I feel funny every time I see that,'' he said with a shrug.
The next stop was the Canadiens' dressing room. On one wall are plaques containing the names of every player since 1917. Above the lockers is a line from Dr. John McCrea's poem, ''In Flanders Fields.''
In English it says: ''To You, From Fallen Hands We Throw the
Torch, Be Yours to Hold It High.''
On the other side of the room, Camil DesRoches has translated it into French:
'' Nos Bras Meurtris Vous Tendent Le Flambeau, A Vous Toujours de le Porter Bien Haut.''
Camil DesRoches said: ''I have been told I did a good job of translating but also making it rhyme in French.''
Over a glass of vin rouge, Camil DesRoches talked of being the youngest of 19 children, of being taken to the cellar when he was 6 years old and being shown the barrel of beer and the bottles of wine.
''My father said: 'You are almost grown up now. You can drink what you want - but never get drunk.' I got drunk once, when I was 17, and my father made me stand almost naked in front of my family, in that condition. I never got drunk again in my life.'' Sipping his wine, he compared three of the great Canadiens of his 46 years: ''Maurice Richard was the Michelangelo of hockey - such dedication, he would work on his back painting the Sistine Chapel, never give up. Jean Beliveau, complete finesse, what style, he was the Da Vinci of hockey. And Guy Lafleur is like Raphael, whose career was not long, but he was an artist and he had a great time.''
When lunch was over, Camil DesRoches concluded: ''I hope you enjoyed the visit to the Forum. Also, I hope you see what it means to our French environment here in Quebec, just like the language, part of our life.''
###

The classic view from Montjuich, the Olympic site in Barcelona, facing the classic (and unfinished) Sagrada Familia. John Jeansonne, my Newsday pal, refers to Montjuich as a sports shrine in his comment below. GV

bruce

5/6/2020 11:54:38 am

george,

maple leaf gardens was my top place when i was a kid because it housed my favourite sports team.

i lived about an hour drive from toronto.

i would call it a shrine for me but.....

only got inside it once tho in 1964 when i was 14.

and actually my memories aren't strong tho i remember being in awe.

strongest impression of that game was the leafs got hammered by the rangers who were awful.

i've mentioned to you that i love the duality of canada's french/english reality. two founding european cultures with the french arriving in present day quebec city around the same time the english arrived at plymouth rock.

as for the column you've included, it might be at the top of the many pieces of yours that i've read.

i hated the habs when i was a kid. too dominant. i became old enough to be aware during their five consecutive cup run.

as much as i hated them, i loved watching games from the forum which was probably the real shrine for me.

teams played each other 14 times a year in those days so i saw the leafs play seven times in la belle province. also, saw montreal home games during the playoffs.

i loved listening to the PA announcement of goals and penalties and one minute left in the period in french and english.

also, the national anthem in a mixture of the two tongues.

still do.

no team in north america sports honours its greats like the canadiens--if i might be allowed some hyperbole we normally associate with our neighbours to the south.

i'm not sure there's a player in any north american sport that held/holds the place of greatness--in several ways--that rocket richard did/does.

#42 for the dodgers and ali, but richard was yuge in canada and bigger than that in quebec.

and, as an aside, robinson played AAA for the montreal royals in 1946.

rickey put him in montreal for a reason.

the robinsons loved montreal. i read that jackie said it was the only time he was chased by whites with love, not hate, on their minds.

richard was a symbol for french canadians who, when he started in ww2, were under the thumb of the english in just about any way you can think.

they had been since losing to the brits at the battle of Abraham during the seven years war in 1759.

richard's talent, drive and fearlessness helped them in the battle for equality.

he's often called the most intense competitor in hockey history. they talked about his eyes when he had the puck.

ironically, his last year was 1960, the same year of what is called 'the quiet revolution' en anglais.

it was a provincial election that started the march to french canadians having their proper place in their province.

led to a strong separatist government in less than a generation. also two referendums on whether to stay in canada.

ah, didn't really stick to topic, but the montreal forum was my shrine, but i never got to it.

the many championship banners and the respect and awe visiting players talked about when playing there.

montreal was an exotic place and one i still love--along with the more french capital quebec city which is more european to me.

this attachment is from 1996 before the last game at the old forum.

they brought their greats out for that night--and there were many of them.

of course, the rocket was introduced last.

this is the reception he got 36 years after his last game; many in the crowd had never seen him play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DS_x0FwuqY

bruce

didn't expect this veer off topic or be so long.....

bruce

George Vecsey

5/6/2020 12:00:06 pm

Bruce: not off target at all.
I covered the first MLB game in Montreal -- in Canada -- in 1969. Paint still drying, I wandered down the RF line pre-game and talked to fans. They talked about Jackie Robinson, which, of course, is why Rickey sent Robinson there in 1946. He would be treated well. Plus, he had teammates like my friends, Al Campanis, who taught him how to play second base (and revered him to his dying day) and George Shuba, who shook his hand at home after JR's first homer in 1946, in Newark/JerseyCity (forget). GV

bruce

5/6/2020 12:10:58 pm

george,

as mentioned, i went to two games in jarry park in 1969 and 1971.

great atmosphere.

saw mays play.

i should point out that the first player after richard was introduced in the attachment was his brother henri (pocket rocket) who died a few months ago.

might be most underrated hockey player in my lifetime tho he's in the hall of fame.

PM mulroney was n the crowd and showed him applauding.

bathing in reflected glory.

bruce

RICHARD TAYLOR

5/6/2020 01:06:37 pm

George, the Forum column really resonated with me. I was born in Montreal in 1955 and my dad took me to my first game in 1963. The game was against the hapless Bruins but the wild card in that was I was a Maple Leafs fan, so I rooted against the Canadians. My uncle, who I adored, lived in Toronto so I always rooted for the Leafs. We sat high up on the Canadians end with a raucous crowd. Thinking back, my father probably thought he had nothing to worry about if I was rooting for the Bruins, they'd be lucky to score one goal. Not to be, the Bruins won 6 to 2. I cheered loudly each time they scored. I've often wondered how uncomfortable my father must have felt with me cheering Boston as we sat in the belly of the beast so to speak. Thanks again for sparking some fond memories.

bruce

5/6/2020 01:21:35 pm

richard,

i grew up outside hamilton.

virtually all taranna fans, but my two best friends were montreal crazy. had single rangers fan, a single red wings fan, a single bruins guy and two chicago fans because of bobby hull.

as george knows, i loved the leafs but gordie howe was my sports hero.

as for cheering the opposition while sitting in the midst of the home fans....in 2014, i was in barcelona for the clasico vs real madrid in madrid.

i'm partial to barcelona, but sat quietly.

there was one guy in the las ramblas sports pub wearing a real madrid top.

every time he jumped up to cheer, he was completely ignored.

not a peep from anybody.

surprised me because of the rivalry plus the anitpathy of many in catalonia for the capital.

bruce

George

5/8/2020 08:39:49 am

Dear Richard Taylor: thanks for the great comment. How civilized, fans in Maple Leaf Gardens. Friend of mine still remembers Met fans aggressing her young nephew, who wore a Red Sox jacket or cap to 1986 WS game.in Shea. GV

Mike from NW Queens

5/6/2020 11:03:15 pm

GV, thanks for the trip down memory lane, once again.
Long version....my Dad, Grandfather, and uncles, and it went this way, Brooklyn Dodger faithful, dejected and detested the other team, in the Bronx. Yours truly, the outcast, love them. So, no trips to that shrine until I was almost 20!
I got there, walking through that walkway and there it is, the interlocking NY behind the plate, the pennants flying, in my opinion, "The Stadium". The green grass, sharp white lime of the foul lines, batters box, on deck circle, pinstripes, Bob Sheppard. Eyes wide open, I made it.
Blue seats, crack of the bat, even back a few steps, Stans across the street, Macombs Dam locals playing the same game. Elevated 'L', (none of those in the Huntington Area).
The game was also played. I made it.
Second place, the infamous Commack (LI) Arena, Harlem
Globetrotters.
Dad was good with this venue!! :>)
Meadowlark and Crew welcome, Yanks, no way.
Third, Nassau Coliseum, Nets, The Dr, mid 70s. #ABA
RR, Roosevelt Raceway,
Not too broad a georgraphic circle, but some great memories of these places. I guess it was a combination of people, places and things.
Thanks for raising the topic GV.

George Vecsey

5/7/2020 08:45:35 am

Mike: I know, I goof on the Yankees -- they ruined my childhood, you understand -- but I totally understand the way you felt in "The big ballpark in the Bronx." The real one, not the new theme park.
My first game -- last game of 1947 season, I'd been to game in Ebbets the year before, My dad got 2 for last game. First old-timers game. Ty Cobb in uniform, horsing around, knocked Yankee catcher on his butt and bunted and laughed his way to first. But before that, Yankees introduced Babe Ruth, already ill, in his camel's-hair coat, his voice echoing around the Stadium, addressing the kids. It was awesome. (Babe Ruth ties with JR42 for my favorite player..) Anyway, it was a classic Yankee Stadium farewell, memorial, honor, Too many of them there, (He came back twice early 48, before his death.) Finally: Phila Athletic pitcher: Lou Brissie, got his foot sewed back on by battlefield medic, Italy, late in the war. His major-league debut., My dad knew all that stuff, filled me in. He was losing pitcher in debut, but what a way to start -- The Babe, packed house, autumn shadows, The Stadium. Became a good pitcher...and Ira Berkow did a lovely book with him a decade or two ago. So much history in Yankee Stadium. Awesome place. GV.

Alan Rubin link

5/7/2020 02:29:03 pm

I was undecided on my choice for a favorite sport’s shrine until I read today’s NYT story about when the Knicks actually won at NBA championship in 1970. They were generally very competitive at that time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/06/sports/basketball/knicks-championship-anniversary.html

It also brought back memories of listening to Marv Albert broadcast both Knicks and Ranger games. If I tuned in late to a game I could almost determine who was winning by his tone..

As a native of Washington Heights in Upper Manhattan growing up in the 1940’s, there were many venues to select from, the old majestic Yankee Stadium, the quirky Polo Grounds with it very short 197’ foul line and 595’ center field to the dirt warning track and an occasional visit to Ebbets Field in Brooklyn.

I loved the old MSG, which was located at 8th Avenue and 50th Street. It had many faults that the new Garden eliminated, but the feel of the place was lost forever.

This was evident whether watching events on TV or being there in the flesh.

There were trying times when watching a hockey or basketball game from the upper seats of the third deck next to a pole. It was quite a workout continually going from side to side around it to see the action.

It was also an environmentalist’s nightmare up in the rafters as it was difficult seeing a game through the haze of cigarette smoke.

There was not the feel of walking on the grass after a game at a baseball stadium as I mentioned in an earlier post, but it was definitely an exciting experience walking from the nearby subway to the 50th Street entrance.

I was ten when I attended my first professional hockey game. My friend’s father had season tickets to the NY Rovers games. They were front row at the red line. That was truly the way to be introduced to hockey. The Rovers were a Ranger farm team and were actually playing better.

However, it was the track meets that were special. The highlights were the mile runs (Milrose and Wannamaker), which attracted the top runners in the world. It was an odd race in that it was about 11 laps around a banked wooden track. Runners feared taking a spill as their short spikes left ample opportunities for getting splinters.

The finish of the 60-yard dash was almost missed as the tape was where the runners disappeared under the stands. I’m not sure if it was yards or meters at the time.

I loved the pole vaulters. One Saturday evening, Dr. Bob Richards was trying to break the 15’ indoors record for the first time in history. He used a bamboo pole as the sling-shot fiberglass ones were not yet invented.

This was probably in 1946. We did not yet have a TV at home even though my dad sold them. They were too new and his electronics-appliance business had one in the store to demonstrate and take orders.

Also, instant replay was not available. Gillette went to commercial and we saw Dr. Richards jumping for joy as he got up out of the pit.

I was not shaving at the time, but I would have switched to another brand if I was.

I would watch the meets at the store on Saturdays and stay until the store closed at nine. Occasionally, there was a really exciting meet and I would push to stay longer.

My dad was a photographer, but he did not have room at home for a darkroom. So, he set one up in the store’s basement warehouse. It was a good situation as we both got to do what we wanted.

It is a wonder that my mother allowed the later Saturday night hours as he worked 9 am-9 pm six days a week.

Once, I watched him develop a B & W print and became hooked on photography. I gave up all my darkroom equipment when we moved into an apartment and never expected to own a home again.

We have been in a home for the past fifteen years having moved to the Berkshires in western MA.

I should have kept the equipment. As good as the photo printing program that I use is, there is nothing like watching an image emerge from a blank sheet of white paper.

Cornelius “Dutch” Warmerdam was the first to break 15’, but it was outdoors and I believe he had the space for a longer approach. It was in 1940 at UC Berkley.

Once we are allowed to congregate outdoors, I will catch a few baseball games at historic Wahconah Park in Pittsfield, MA. It is about three miles from my house and is they way to enjoy the game.

Mike from NW Queens

5/7/2020 02:39:36 pm

Alan, thanks so much for stirring up more memories for me. The Millrose Games, (the Eamonn Coughlin era), were an annual favorite at MSG and yes, the WWF! A night out for sure. Speaking of Marv, we used to mute the TV at home and put him on the radio for those NY Knicks. 50 years ago, so sad as well.
Thank you GV for the notes too.

Roy Edelsack

5/7/2020 07:48:30 pm

Alan: Old MSG is my choice as well. Saw the circus there. Saw a Roy Rogers Rodeo show there with Dale Evans, Rusty, Pat Brady, Bullet, and even Trigger! They had what they called the "World Series of Basketball" in which the Harlem Globetrotters played "semi-seriously" against a team of college All-Americans. Chet Forte of Columbia was the captain of the All-Americans.

And speaking of Columbia basketball, Heyward Dotson passed away a few days ago. One of the great things I witnessed at the old Garden was the 1967 Holiday Festival when Columbia, a 17-point underdog beat Louisville on the way to the title. Louisville had Butch Beard and Wes Unseld but the Lions had Jim McMillan, 7-footer Dave Newmark, and the great Dotson. Butch Beard later said that other than JoJo
White, no one guarded him better than Dotson. Heyward had an amazing move on defense where he would drop to his knees like a matador challenging a bull and then swipe the ball from the dribbler trying to go around him.

Finally, not to get all Proustian here, there was a magic smell as you walked in under the old marquee made up of Nedick's orange soda, hot dogs, and cigar smoke. Ambrosia!

bruce

5/7/2020 09:46:49 pm

roy,

your memory triggered (so to speak) one i'd forgotten about.

the cowboy show i went to was around my fifth birthday when gene autry performed at the forum in hamilton, ontario.

it was a hockey rink with square corners called 'the barn' by locals. the junior hockey team was affiliated with the detroit red wings.

just checked. march 19th, 1955.

my mother took me and i was pretty pumped.

you can imagine my dismay when gene and champion trotted out onto a platform of some sort.

i don't recall what it was made of, but champion seemed unsure of his footing.

he stopped and all four legs started to slide.

he ended up splayed out on all fours with gene still atop him.

i have no memory how they got him back up. autry must've climbed off so they could coax champion from the platform then put something that stuck on or to the platform.

i still remember my shock.

bruce

George

5/8/2020 08:47:03 am

Roy, thanks. Ah, yes, the old Garden. The games. The fans. I saw Althea Gibson play there, and the Globetrotters against college stars who were trying. The Globies had to go all out to win, those kids were serious. We saw Gene Autry there....and the circus. And yes, Nedicks, alongside the marquee. The sweet orange soda and the sizzling hot dogs. On the sidewalk -- one pay phone, where gents looked at their notes and made cryptic calls. (bookies/bettors). Couple we know live in nice apt. with patio facing the old MSG block. All those memories come roaring back., GV

bruce

5/7/2020 02:50:47 pm

alan,

excellent post.

bruce

Alan Rubin link

5/7/2020 03:28:57 pm

Bruce and Mike--Thanks for your kind comments.

There is such joy and excitement when someone or thing triggers past memories. There are some disadvantages in getting older, but it also allows more time for memories.

It is not just sports, it also includes family and friends.

A common comment that I receive from youngsters that I either coach or mentor is, "I have no experience." The laugh when I ask if they were born knowing what they do now, but that is called experience.

It is tempting to comment a lot in a single post, but I like they way the thread continually builds as old memories are tweaked.

Good stuff.

bruce

5/7/2020 04:23:30 pm

alan,

your 'i have no experience' mention reminded me of perspective.

one of favourite jokes is of the fruit fly with the 24 hour life span lamenting just before he died....'if i'd only known at 3 o'clock what i know now.'

bruce

John Jeansonne link

5/7/2020 05:09:12 pm

Just two of many favorite sports cathedrals: Track and Field's Hayward Field in Eugene, Ore., and the L.A. Coliseum...

http://www.johnjeansonne.com/?cat=110
www.johnjeansonne.com/?cat=109

George

5/7/2020 05:55:24 pm

John, your choice means a lot to me because you have been so many places for Newsday, and you wrote a lot about T&F.
First time I was in Coliseum was for UCLA game -- 1966, maybe? -- went with Isaacs and, I think, Merchant, out there for Dodgers race or WS. Gary Beban played.
Rose Bowl? All I could think about was the old Jack Benny radio show...they were always late for one reason or another, and ran into the same characters. LA seemed so far away back in the day,
best
GV

John Jeansonne link

5/7/2020 06:29:37 pm

Somewhere I have made a list of all the stadiums and arenas I've been to, everything from Lambeau Field in Green Bay to Michigan Stadium to Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis (the old Hawks arena). I think the total is more than 200, and doesn't even count the international places. A favorite there would be Monjuic in Barcelona.

George

5/8/2020 08:53:16 am

John, excellent recall of Montjuic. The classic view for photographers -- Gaudi's unfinished church with the spires. His city, unforgettable. In 92 Olympics, I had the Timesmobile at the NYT flat (a/k/a La Casa de Pulgas). One morning I told Dave and Jano and Sandy, my flat-mates, that I would drive them to the press center but we had to make a stop at Parque Guell on another hill, with eccentric benches, tables, etc. Memorable outing -- half an hour of hooky, with classic Olympian view. GV

Peter Kennedy link

5/8/2020 11:44:19 am

Many great shrines already covered here. Here's mine: Van Cortlandt Park, for scholastic and college x-country competitions. I assume it's still a race venue. It was both a terrifying and thrilling place to compete in my late 1960s running days, with thousands of the finest harriers from across the tri-state area. Glory days.

Alan Rubin link

5/8/2020 03:47:12 pm

Peter-I believe that Van Courtland Park is still being used as a x-country venue.

My daughter Jen’s Suffern High School team, as well as others from Rockland County, NY ran there.

She had an amusing experience during her first run as a freshman. They have several courses there and she was talking to a boy as they both ran. He informed her that she was in the wrong race.

Although Jen came in last of all the female runners, her coach had a sense of humor. In listing each girl’s times, he noted that Jen’s included a detour over the Cross Bronx Expressway.

It was all uphill after that as she eventually became a strong runner.

Suffern also ran regularly in Saturday meets in Sunken Meadow State Park in Smithtown, LI.

She also had the same coach for indoor and outdoor track. He became her mentor and they are still good friends thirty-six years later.

Peter J. Kennedy link

5/10/2020 08:23:01 pm

Thank you, Alan, for confirming my hunch that Van Cortlandt is still a going concern for x-country runners, and for sharing your daughter Jen's story. Classic! (We used to live in Suffern, BTW. Both of our kids, now grown, were born at Good Sam's.) In HS I ran for St. Mary's (Manhasset, LI), though I lived in Port Washington (yes, George's home). Sunken Meadow was a punishing course.I still "run" thanks to improved shoe technology but suffered mightily as a scholastic runner from chronic shin splints. But still, great experiences and memories.

Jen Rubin

5/10/2020 09:01:23 pm

Alan Rubin's daughter here. I loved running in Van Courtland Park for my 4 years of high school cross country and imagine I still hold claim to the slowest time ever recorded. While it is a bit impolite to fact check my own father - I was not talking to a boy during the race. It was my first race my first year running. I didn't train before highschool started and was out of shape. And I had a horrible sense of direction. I was so far behind that I couldn't see the race, took a wrong turn and ended up on the cross bronx expressway. Didn't dim my love of Van Cortland and made me a shoo in for most improved that eyar.

Alan Rubin link

5/11/2020 02:40:27 pm

Jen is probably right in correcting me, but I somehow still remember hearing that wrong race story.

Suffern had a poor duel meet record against the other Rockland County teams winning only one. However, they always placed well in the weekend meets in Van Cortland Park and Sunken Meadow Park meets.

Coach McTaggart was laughed at by his fellow coaches when asked how he thought Suffern would do in the league meet at Bear Mountain State Park.

That Saturday, Jen finished a strong 20th place and Suffern came in second.

An excellent recovery from getting lost in her first meet.

George Vecsey

5/8/2020 03:50:34 pm

Peter: The web says it is still used for cross-country meets including elite ones. You must have run there more than once to have a familiar feeling for it. I have never been there, but recently read about it in a great book "Island at the Center of the World," by Russell Shorto. At the cutting edge of history -- not just your races. GV

Alan Rubin link

5/10/2020 12:17:47 pm

Great book.

Jen would be a female addition to this thread as well as a x-country runner, but sticks to Moth posts and podcasts.

Alan Rubin link

5/8/2020 12:33:00 pm

Roy, the memories keep on rolling out.

I played against Chet Forte when we were in high school in New Jersey. He was from Hackensack and I was across the river in Teaneck.

I had played Junior High School basketball, but seldom got into a game being the 13th player on a 13-man team. I opted for recreation basketball in senior high school so that I could play regularly.

Chet was a basketball regular at the Hackensack YMHA. The Y was good about letting non-members play who were invited by members. He was very difficult to guard and always had a hand in my face when I attempted a shot, that is if he did not steal the ball.

Nedick’s hot dogs and orange soda were the life-blood of anyone passing under the old marquee. The closest thing to it today is Grey’s Papaya’s famous hot dog stand at the SE corner of Broadway and 72nd Street.

My business was at the corner of 98th and Broadway, but I often made sure that I was near Papaya’s at lunch time. I would eat my three crispy raw union smothered hot dogs while walking back to 98th.

If I was there either earlier or later in the day, I would still buy the hot dogs. Also, there were still some authentic Jewish delicatessens on the Upper West Side. I would get my favorite triple-decker of soft salami, roast beef and tongue, topped by coleslaw.

A pure overflowing salami sandwich was also a favorite. It was so loaded with meat that it was difficult to bite into it.

My freshman year at Lehigh University, a bunch of us NY area students went to the only Jewish deli in town for some familiar fare. I watched in horror as the man behind the counter put a slice of bread on a scale, added three slices of salami as dictated by his weight standard, and served it without a pickle.

Needless to say, I never returned during my five plus years in Bethlehem, PA.

George Vecsey

5/8/2020 03:56:58 pm

Alan: Forte was a terrific player. Saw him for Columbia once, against Red Lee of Yale.
And speaking of shrines,don't think I ever went into that papaya stand but I can place it -- you'd come out of the IRT building on the island middle of Broadway, and there it was.
Oh, man, I miss my home town.
GV

Alan Rubin link

5/8/2020 05:07:56 pm

George, that is the place.

Randolph

5/8/2020 08:23:44 pm

Alan, George, Mike, Bruce, Roy, Peter, John, Richard,
I hope I didn’t forget anybody.
Wow!
You guys have a good book here. This thread has been a real joy.
RF

bruce

5/8/2020 09:24:41 pm

randolph,

thanks for including me in your list.

i think george's readers are generally considered the most literate--the likes of which have never been seen before--to quote a great american--in the centuries of blogdom.

at least that's what people are saying, eh!

bruce

Randolph

5/8/2020 09:39:25 pm

Bruce,
I always enjoy your comments and should have said so sooner.
Keep writing .....
RF

bruce

5/8/2020 09:43:54 pm

randolph,

well, now i'm blushing.

just hope you don't get corrupted after reading comments from a citizen of a country full of socialist loons.

thanks again.

bruce

Randolph

5/8/2020 10:30:35 pm

Bruce,
I love socialist loons.
The US could learn a lot from Canada.
RF

bruce

5/8/2020 10:36:48 pm

randolph,

the only people that seem to hate canadians are other canadians.

pretty regional place.

i've travelled a fair amount and can't recall ever being hassled just cuz i was a canuck

be careful tho you might be considered unpatriotic and have the NSA people show up at your door.

bruce

Don

5/9/2020 09:17:08 am

Apparently, while I must have been on some other planet, I missed the news that you were still writing regularly on your Web site. Oh how I miss your NYT columns (and Red Smith and Dave Anderson) while commuting into the city on the LIRR forever (35yrs). I was down some quarantine rabbit hole or another when I stumbled into it. How wonderful!

Alan Rubin link

5/9/2020 12:27:59 pm

Don,

Wow! Thirty-five years commuting on the LIRR. There should be a Medal for that with the highest honor going to those who drove it.

I endured a sixty-mile round trip from Suffern, NY to 98th Street and Broadway in Manhattan for about twenty-six years. At least I had the advantage of moving without delays most of the time and the ability to listen to music or books on tape.

There was also the news, but most of the time it was depressing. However, I did learn the workings of Wall Street in that the same rational was used whether it went up or down.

There was a bit of history in that one of my traffic short cuts was made famous by NJ Gov. Christi's Bridge-gate. It took you through a single toll that bypassed the row of regular ones. It gave one a mixture of guilt and euphoria to save fifteen to twenty minutes.

Any Long Island Expressway (an oxymoron is there ever was one) commuter who read Robert Cano’s book “The Power Broker” traveled with the knowledge that Robert Moses rejected the suggestion of beefing up the roadbed for the center two lanes for a potential light rail system. There were even two center lanes on the upper deck of the George Washington Bridge available to continue a LIE light rail system into Northern NJ.

Where were the visionaries of the Panama and Erie Canals when we needed them?

Yes Bruce, George definitely has an interesting and diverse following. There are the regulars, those who attend occasionally and probably a multitude of observers.

We should not forget the occasional “special guest” from George’s varied past.

bruce

5/9/2020 12:44:46 pm

alan,

i drove about 80 miles round trip for my university years.

fairly benign drive but for the winter.

my strongest memory is that after a while i'd arrive and couldn't remember passing all the landmarks.

bruce.

Don

5/9/2020 01:56:32 pm

Bruce and Alan,
Thanks for the comments, Hats off to you both, you’re the Cal Ripken jr and Lou Gehrig of commuting. I’ve been retired for 10 yrs now so I only have happy commuting memories of scanning the news and reading my favorite commentators so I could get to the crossword puzzle.

George

5/9/2020 06:41:47 pm

Don, thanks for the lovely words. Yes, I've been writing this since retirement near end of 2011 (!) My friend Boston Becky said I would go nuts without an outlet, and she was right. I became obsessive about this -- more so during this Time of the Troubles.
I appreciate your nice words about the column. It was a fixture for so many years -- appointed columnists, thinking on their own. So many good people, it was an honor to be associated. I don;t mind saying, I miss a regular sports column. My friend Sally Jenkins of the WaPo was just a finalist for the Pulitzer and she deserves it for being the literate and passionate voice. This is where one old columnist has gone to keep typing and thinking...Glad you noticed. GV

Peter J. Kennedy link

5/10/2020 08:32:16 pm

Alan -- I commuted daily from Suffern and later Spring Valley to New York between 1983 and 1989. First train, then the Red & Tan bus lines. It really wasn't bad as far as commutes go, but it was still 3 hours out of my day, every day. When my #2 was born, I looked for alternatives to the NY suburban grind and found it, working for a small consulting outfit outside of Hartford, CT. We're still here. My kids and their spouses/others live in Manhattan. The usual story, right? Cheers.

Alan Rubin link

5/11/2020 01:02:21 pm

Peter-

Small world. job out of graduate school was with Pratt & Whitney Aircraft in E. Hartford 1958-1960. It was a great two years as jet engines just were introduced to commercial airlines. I worked on high temperature materials when everything was so new.

Initially, I lived for several months in W. Hartford but then moved to Manchester, CT just down the road from University of Conn. Loved the area.

Peter Kenendy link

5/11/2020 01:27:12 pm

Alan: Thank your daughter Jen for contributing and for confirming my Van Cortlandt x-country memories. The life overlaps continue. I live in Glastonbury, just next to Manchester, and have many P&W friends and neighbors, as you can imagine. (Sorry for out-of-sequence reply but could not find a "Reply" tab on your latest post.

Alan Rubin link

5/11/2020 02:32:31 pm

Peter- Do you happen to live on the historic main street in Glastonbury? One of co-workers was recently married and had purchased one of the old homes. It was always a delight to visit them.

Mike from NW Queens

5/9/2020 03:07:11 pm

Wow.......this blog post like a Timex Watch, keeps on ticking!!
Van Cortlandt had two or three loops, Freshman, 1.5m, Varsity, 3m. College, 5m. So many FallSaturday AM's busloads coming in from such faraway places as Nyack, Suffern (just kidding Alan, I lived in Ramsey for a few years), Port Chester. For those who remember the course, the finish lines then were in the soccer area on Broadway. Right before was a downhill into the field, yours truly slipped on the mud and slid all the way down, whoa! The woods across the Henry Hudson, Saturday AM's, saw folks leftover from Friday Night, a burnt out car......those were the days.
Sunken Meadow, also three loops, same as Van C. Cardiac Hill on the Varsity and College courses. the loop around the pond to the finish line, the scent and sounds of the LI Sound, the wind, the Fall, the euphoria of crossing that finish line, teammates, family, etc.
Bethpage State Park has courses too, flat and not as windy, many PRs (Personal Records in track lingo!), set there, my own included!
Saw some great runners, a healthy environment, shared a few years running with my dad too. Villanova, Manhattan, Providence of the late 70's a Van Cortlandt, Manhattan College Invitational.
Thanks George, thanks everyone, this is a great escape these days.

George

5/9/2020 04:14:04 pm

This is fun. I just wish we had a female responder talking about a youth soccer pitch or a large arena or stadium. Or they have better things to do. Could be the case. GV

bruce

5/9/2020 04:50:05 pm

george,

as scintillating as we all are, there is a definite dearth of the female of the species.

just reminded of my first full time as a copy boy in the hamilton spectator newsroom in august 1968.

used to be the women's section just off the newsroom.....sewing, cooking, recipes, latest fashions, ann landers.....

only seems like 100 years ago.

bruce

bruce

Gene Palumbo

5/9/2020 08:14:51 pm

I'm joining this thread late and just wanted to say "Thanks" to bruce for providing the link to the video of the reception for Maurice Richard received at the last game at the Forum.

bruce

5/9/2020 08:29:27 pm

gene,

glad you enjoyed it.

here's one more for your consideration of my all time sports hero gordie howe playing in the 1980 all star game during his last season in the nhl.

don't know if you follow hockey, but the game was in detroit where he played for ages.

retired at 52 after scoring 15 goals....52.

finished in the top 10 in scoring for 21 consecutive years, i remember correctly.

scored his last goal at the montreal forum.

crowd gave him a standing ovation.

bruce

https://www.google.com/search?q=gordie+howe+intro+1980+all+star+game&rlz=1C1OKWM_enCA863CA863&oq=go&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j69i59j69i60l5.1782j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

George

5/10/2020 11:06:05 pm

Jen;’thanks for setting the record straight. Was your dad at the meet — or did he add A bit
Of apocrypha afterward? Fathers are like that. I used to jinx Laura when she was playing HS hoops. I had to hide behind bleachers. You just set a record for most family members on one site. Well done. GV

Randolph

5/11/2020 06:52:52 am

George,
I just finished your article that appeared in the New York Times sports page this morning.
I had forgotten about the murder of Michael Jordan’s dad. I don’t remember ever reading your article.
It was a sad story. You did a good job with it.
Thanks,

RF

George

5/11/2020 01:46:26 pm

Randolph: Thanks. I have to say, some columns are like yesterday, I remember thinking/writing....This one, I didn;t remember doing it, although I surely remember the sad event, and the Jordan era.
It happens YOu know I covered religion from 1976 into 1980.In 1993, now a decade as a sports columnist, I got a call from the NYT that they were preparing my obituary on Norman Vincent Peale, who had just died., I said I never wrote one...They said, oh, yes, you did. We have the original paper copy of your text. I remembered interviewing him in late 70s....at his office...but had no memory of writing it., Other things, you remember where you were, how you prepared it, the process of writing it....lot of work, lot of years. Don't tell anybody....GV

ahron horowitz

5/11/2020 12:45:09 pm

george-went to 3 games at ebbetts field.first games with my friend was on the new lots line of the irt to yankee stadium in 1959.after the mets -dodgers memorial day doubleheader did not go to yankee until 1984.the first time in the old garden was 1959 knicks with willie naulls and richie gurein.all the best george.ahron

George Vecsey

5/11/2020 01:49:30 pm

What I remember about getting to Ebbets Field is that it took a bus from my house to Jamaica, then 3 el/subway trains....or else LIRR to Atlantic Ave. and then, I think, one subway. There could have been a Dodger ball park where Barclay Center is now. Didn' happen.. Hope all is well with your family. George

bruce

5/11/2020 02:47:33 pm

alan,

i think i'll just sit back and follow the rubin family dustup about who doesn't know what in the deity's name they're talkin' aboot.

remember be civil.

we're a semi civilized bunch at this site.

bruce

Ray Barrington

5/12/2020 10:39:14 am

I went to Fenway Park in 1986, but what I remember is getting there early, sitting in the steps outside and watching everyone go by, and letting my mind go back to what it might have been like in 1946, crowds milling asking each other if Ted Williams could really make it to .400, or 1967, with Yaz's name the one on everyone's lips.

George

5/12/2020 10:55:14 pm

Ray: I know, that narrow lane feels
So historic — like road over the interstate, Etc. you feel the history. I am not a Sox fan but love the city and the ballpark. Bostonians point out the hotel where
Ted Wms lived, etc. thanks for writing. GV

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