Two More Things I Want to Say About Muhammad Ali

6/5/2016

(Above: Bud Collins Interviews Muhammad Ali, 1968.)

When the Times called and asked me to write something about Ali, I stuck close to the theme of personal fleeting encounters with Ali – once upon a time in America.

There was no time or space for two other impressions of Ali, so I am getting to them here, both from 1996.

The Anniversary. In March of 1996, I drove down to North Philadelphia to Joe Frazier’s gym, to talk about the 25th anniversary of their first fight in 1971. I knew Ali could no longer discuss that fight, but Smokin’ Joe could.

I found him smoldering, resentful over the way Ali had pulled racial attitudes on him, calling him a gorilla and mocking the way he spoke.

"I won that fight," Frazier said about 1971. "Guess I won the other two, also. I'm here talking to you, right?"

He was crowing about still being able to work out and drive a car and talk to me, quite intelligently, his speech slightly difficult to follow because he grew up in a coastal region of South Carolina where the African dialect of Gullah was an influence.

I could understand Smokin’ Joe just fine. He felt that Ali – sometimes he called him “Clay,” his birth or slave name – was duplicitous, manipulative, vicious.

Two of Frazier’s children were at the gym – Marvis, preacher/boxer/companion, and Jackie Frazier-Lyde, his athlete daughter, now a municipal judge. Both were a tribute to Joe, and to their mother, adults with brains and compassion. They told him, Dad, you have to get over it.

I knew Joe and Marvis to be good people. They had recently driven from Philly to Long Island in a major January snowstorm to attend the funeral of a dear friend, arriving at the synagogue after the service and staying a long time.

I felt for Smokin’ Joe, who passed in 2011. In the mirror of time, Ali was diminished by his treatment of Frazier.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/03/03/sports/perspective-boxing-25-years-haven-t-softened-blows-frazier-finally-earned.html?pagewanted=all

The Olympic Torch. A bunch of reporters were sitting in the press tribune at the Olympic Stadium, speculating on who would have the honor of carrying the torch on its final segment – a famous athlete? A King or a Carter? An artistic symbol of the new South?

I don’t think any of us were prepared for the slow, deliberate trudge of the figure in white, one hand quivering, one hand carrying the torch up a narrow pathway.

When we realized who it was, we gasped and then we did something banned in press boxes – we stood and exchanged high fives. Muhammad Ali. Perfect.

Everybody understood the forces within that diminished figure – the draft, the conversion, the hyperbole, the beauty, the fights, the path from alien radical to stricken native son.

That happened on a Friday night, too late for the Saturday paper. A few hours later for the Sunday paper I wrote this short, personal, emotional tribute less to Ali himself than to the Atlanta organizers who, perhaps to my shock, totally got it. (With a major nudge from Dick Ebersol of NBC.)

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/sports/year_in_sports/07.19.html

* * *

(Finally, my thanks to so many people who have responded to my column in the Times. My praises to the professionals who produced and distributed the Ali tribute in about 170,000 copies of the final edition of the Saturday paper – including one on my doorstep.)

1971

Michael

6/5/2016 02:05:01 pm

George - I kept checking this site, hoping for more on the subject. You came through and thanks! I was a boyhood fan of Ali, and remained as much. Agree his words about Fraizer were unfortunate and undignified. Michael

Altenir Silva

6/5/2016 02:05:34 pm

Dear George,
Ali never lost a fight, I guess. In the boxing ring, he had trained for the life.
Great article at NYTimes, my friend. Congrats.
Best - Altenir

mike from whitestone

6/5/2016 07:31:03 pm

GV; Thanks for the kind words (aka kudos!) toward us in Queens, remember, you are part of that team too.
I sat ringside at the Golden Gloves in 2009 or 2010, in front of Smokin' Joe and Marvis, both very nice, but the hits had gotten to Joe, he needed help getting to his seat from both Marvis and a cane. Sad, but pride beamed through his eyes when I greeted him with, "Hi Champ".

Great column yesterday by you and Dave and everyone. That paper (newsprint) was a reason for pride and keeping the presses rolling.

Thanks for sharing here too George.
RIP Muhammad, you changed the game.

Elliott H Kolker

6/5/2016 11:56:08 pm

First of three "Ali" comments

Earlier this week, I posted a piece, (Bill James On-Line:)

"Decoration Day: 2016'', about The Saga of NY Giants Eddie Grant and the Replacement of his Plaque at Pac Bell Park as a Thread on Bill James On-Line. This is my response to the first posting to reply: Considering the passing of Mohammad Ali yesterday, I suppose I could slightly revise, re-title and rededicate it:

"The Greatest Fortitude"
For: All Who Have Given Their Last Full Measure of Devotion
in Service to Their Better Angels.
The Village Elliott: 6/1/16

Post #2: 6/1/16: 2:07 AM: Just a thought. Perhaps we'd be a better country if we celebrated, Draft Dodgers Day, more than Memorial Day.

I replied: Post #3 The Village Elliott: 6/1/16:6:36 AM

By "Draft Dodgers," do you mean "Conscientious Objectors," like Mohammad Ali, or "Chicken Hawks," like Dick Cheney?

If you mean the former, I think we would be a far better country if we celebrated each equally. I’d willingly contribute a poem in support:

" 'Profiles in Courage, the First Amendment and Constitutional Protection as Bulwark Against the Tyranny of the Minority."
For: Mohammad Ali
The Village Elliott: 6/1/16

Thank Jah for those with Fortitude,
Defending us from "Mind-Intrude,"
With Constitutional Protection,
Promoting Rational Selection.

If you mean the latter. I think eight years of Bush-Cheney is ninety six months more than enough. Personally, I can't afford to pay any more to celebrate those Sanctimonious. Draft Dodging. Hypocritical Self-Aggrandizing Usurpers. I can't even afford to donate my time, energy, effort or willingness to write a poem to denounce them.

However I am willing to donate my share of Our Two-Month National Nightmare between the 2000 General Election and the Certification of the Electoral Vote in Jan. 2001 and write a poem to celebrate:
"In Memory of the 'Last Full Measure' of Constitutional Checks, Balances and Due Process Sacrificed by Congressional Cowardice and the Unconscionable Abandonment of the Green Party Platform and Constituency by the Party's Presidential Candidate/Champion/ Defender-of-the-Faith Mama's Boy on the Altar of Hypocritical Zealotry"
For: Ralph Nader and The Chicken-Shyte-Hawks
The Village Elliott: 6/1/16

I guess the title says it all,
Of whom I voted for that fall;
Not Donkey's Inconvenient Fool,
(Damned Sanctimonious Bush Tool),
Not those some claim stole crown Unfair,
(I claim they bought it fair and square;
It was the Second Act they stole;
Ohio playing leading role.)
But Whom, when in our deepest need,
Abandoned us at Unsafe Speed;

Since none of them deserve our trust,
I resolve I'll add "adjust"
Post on "New Year's Resolution,"
Poetic "Two-for-One Solution.

Elliott H Kolker

6/6/2016 12:01:36 am

2nd of three "Ali" comments:

"Viva Las Memory"
For: "The Greatest," Mohammad Ali: (Nee: Cassius Clay)
1/17/1942-6/3/2016
"The King:" Elvis Presley: 1/8/1935-8/16/1977
And "The Bear:" Sonny Liston: 5/8/1932-12/30/1970
The Village Elliott: 6/4/2016

Met Ali in LV, 'Sixty-Three,
Elvis stayed, filmed same hotel as me,
Went to see Liston play,
Met instead Cassius Clay,
My Greatest: "Viva Las Memory."

When I met Cassius Clay...

Worst Song Ever? "You're Having My Baby." by Paul Anka.

I'm from St. Louis. In July, 1963, my father scored a three day comp for the Sahara Hotel in Vegas, a week before the Liston-Patterson rematch. He had ties with the local boxing community and had met Liston, who was from St Louis, through "his People," from whom he scored the comps.

The comp also included tickets to the show. We attended the dinner show. Allen and Rossi, ("Hello, Dare") opened for Paul Anka. Waiting in the lobby before the show, My Mother commented on
"the big greaser" standing in front of us loud enough that he couldn't pretend he didn't hear. When he turned around, I met a very gracious Paul Anka.

You can look it up: These were the three days Elvis filmed Viva Las Vegas at the Sahara. I didn't meet Elvis, or Ann-Margret, but when
we went over to visit the Liston camp at the Dunes(?), I met some-
one even more iconic; not Liston, who wasn't there, but:

Walking through the lobby as we were leaving, my father became excited, purchased a post card and said, "Go get that large Black
Man's autograph." I had no idea who he was, even after I got it.
Three days later, after he invaded Liston's training camp, everyone knew who Cassius Clay was.

Yes, though Liston may have been "The (Current) Champ" and Elvis may be "The (Once and Future) King", I met "The Greatest."

Eight months later,Tues., Feb. 25, 1964, Cassius Clay shocked the world by defeating Liston, becoming the Heavyweight Champion of the World. Two days later on Thursday, he came out as Mohammad Ali. Two days later, on Sat, the 29th, was my Bar Mitzvah and I came out as Elijah. I've always had an affinity with him

What happened to the autograph, you ask? Don't ask. My father, cried about it every day until he died three years later. He is probably still crying about it. In hindsight, it is fortunate we missed the Generation Gap Confrontation that would have inevitably happen, especially when "debating" our opposing opinions on Ali's CO stand.

Elliott H Kolker

6/6/2016 12:05:25 am

3rd of three comments On Bill James On Line,

Someone posted: I am not sure of the particulars of Ali's stated legal objections to the draft, but I do know that he spent a lot of time speaking at colleges as the case made its way through the courts and when he did, he always made it clear he didn't want to fight the Vietcong because he thought they were not his enemy.

I replied:

I was in high school during Ali's trial, in college when he won his appeal. During this period, my attitude towards African-Americans changed from Acute to Obtuse, eventually becoming Diametric when I moved to Hawaii and experienced "racial prejudice" first hand.

But because of:

1) My affinity for Ali (See Post 4; above) and
2) My father's antipathy towards the military and the draft,
3) His employment/involvement in the Black Community, thus my personal exposure,

4)Despite my inherent aversion to my "Semitic-Islamic Cousins"
5)and fear of growing "Ghetto Rage,"
6) And though I may have echoed Dad's disdain for his particular "Storefront Church,"

Neither my father or I ever questioned Ali's sincerity or convictions or Constitutional Right to claim he was legitimately ordained minister of The Nation of Islam and always supported his right to c/o status at a time my contemporaries were being ordained "Ministers" in the "Universal Life Church" by sending in $10 along with a coupon fond in the back of Sgt. Rock/Army at War comic books in order to "Dodge the Draft."

As I recall, Ali never claimed he was against ALL WAR or wavered from his assertion that he considered "Whitey" a far more personal adversary than "Charlie." Neither did he ever use this as a legal argument to avoid the Draft. It was ALWAYS a case of First Amendment Protection of Religious Freedom
___________________________________________

Evidently, the Supreme Court agreed:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/403/698

Cassius Marsellus CLAY, Jr. also known as Muhammad Ali, Petitioner, v. UNITED STATES.

403 U.S. 698 (91 S.Ct. 2068, 29 L.Ed.2d 810)
Cassius Marsellus CLAY, Jr. also known as Muhammad Ali, Petitioner, v. UNITED STATES.

No. 783.

Argued: April 19, 1971.

Decided: June 28, 1971.
• per_curiam, per_curiam [HTML]
• concurrence, DOUGLAS [HTML]
• concurrence, HARLAN [HTML]

Chauncey Eskridge, Chicago, Ill., for petitioner.

Solicitor Gen. Erwin N. Griswold for respondent.

TOP PER CURIAM.

The petitioner was convicted for willful refusal to submit to induction into the Armed Forces. 62 Stat. 622, as amended, 50 U.S.C.App. § 462(a). (1964 ed., Supp. V). The judgment of conviction was affirmed by the Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. 1 We granted certiorari, 400 U.S. 990, 91 S.Ct. 457, 27 L.Ed.2d 438 to consider whether the induction notice was invalid because grounded upon an erroneous denial of the petitioner's claim to be classified as a conscientious objector.

* The petitioner's application for classification as a conscientious objector was turned down by his local draft board, and he took an administrative appeal. The State Appeal Board tentatively classified him I—A (eligible for unrestricted military service) and referred his file to the Department of Justice for an advisory recommendation, in accordance with then-applicable procedures. 50 U.S.C.A.App. § 456(j) (1964 ed., Supp. V). The FBI then conducted an 'inquiry' as required by the statute, interviewing some 35 persons, including members of the petitioner's family and many of his friends, neighbors, and business and religious associates.

There followed a hearing on 'the character and good faith of the (petitioner's objections' before a hearing officer appointed by the Department. The hearing officer, a retired judge of many years' experience, 2 heard testimony from the petitioner's mother and father, from one of his attorneys, from a minister of his religion, and from the petitioner himself. He also had the benefit of a full report from the FBI. On the basis of this record the hearing officer concluded that the registrant was sincere in his objection on religious grounds to participation in war in any form, and he recommended that the conscientious objector claim be sustained. 3

Notwithstanding this recommendation, the Department of Justice wrote a letter to the Appeal Board, advising it that the petitioner's conscientious objector claim should be denied. Upon receipt of this letter of advice, the Board denied the petitioner's claim without a statement of reasons. After various further proceedings which it is not necessary to recount here, the petitioner was ordered to report for induction. He refused to take the traditional step forward, and this prosecution and conviction followed

George Vecsey

6/6/2016 08:07:31 am

Elliott, thanks for your reactions to living in Ali's time.
I was using the term "draft-dodger" in the public realm or colloquium, not as my label on him.
I know people who were C.O.s and did (a) a year in prison or (b) alternative service. That took guts.
We had two children young....not for that reason....so no hard choices.
We all know public figures who have said things like military service was not their priority at that time.
I know people who died in VN, or came home with memories.
Ali's path was very public, and very complicated.
GV

Elliott Kolker

6/6/2016 09:34:19 am

George,

Thank you for your reply. There may be a misunderstanding re: the use of the term "Draft Dodger Day" This is what someone on another site called his alternative to Memorial Day.

I was curiously isolated from the War. I never had to serve. I had high school/college student deferments. was Included in the second lottery, I pulled 319, and that was pretty much it. Very few of my friends or relatives had to serve.

My personal experience came later, starting with my brother-in-law.
He returned stateside when I started college. He was back two weeks when my sister asked him to marry him. As I told him then, "I couldn't wait until someone married her and got her out off my daily life. But I like you and advise against it. At least wait until you are mustered out in six months."

He replied, "I know, but I dig her."

During their divorce two years later, he told me " I was back for three months when I woke up and realized I was married, she was nearly three months pregnant and not only had I borrowed against my separation pay, once I was out, all the delayed payments were starting."

First case of PTSD I encountered. Not the last.

Like Josey Wales said when Fletcher said, "I'm going to Mexico, try to find Josey and tell him the War is over": "I reckon we all died a little in that damn war."

I reckon we did, too.

But Mohammad Ali, who could probably have served in Special Services as some general's prize instead chose to stand by his unpopular, yet Constitutionally protected Freedoms and showed America what our True Potential is.

We were privileged, indeed, to be alive in his lifetime to witness the courage and strength of his convictions.

Brian Savin

6/7/2016 06:49:18 am

I've deliberately ignored all the headline articles about this man and turned off even my (only) favorite TV show, Charles Osgood's, because I couldn't stand reliving the hype again. A would be hero is marketed and created by folks with a motive; it happens too many times in our culture. We're saps for it in this country, maybe any country. So, often, are the interesting people being used. I guess its worth it for them. They get to be heavy weight champ, a movie queen, maybe even a President and they likely wouldn't otherwise. Finally, I've read four articles, all of them yours. Every one cut through the hype and examined the impact of this man-play on other people, some audience, some stepping stones. That's exactly where the focus needs to be in a look-back on this life. I'm glad these were the articles I chose to read. I knew they would have something to say that was important to think on.

George Vecsey

6/7/2016 09:00:22 am

Hi, Brian, thank you so much for the lovely words.
I learned a lot about Ali from my colleagues who were around him more in the 60's -- Stan Isaacs of Newsday, Bob Lipsyte, Leonard Shecter, Larry Merchant, Bud Collins, people who respected his evolutions and yet monitored the complexities.
I was also lucky enough to know Joe Frazier better, through mutual friends (forgot to mention, accompanying Phil Donahue to the Ohio State pen with Frazier circa 1971, and seeing inmates heckle Frazier as the white man's champ). Those were complicated years. I was also lucky enough to live in Louisville for two years and understand Ali's home town, just a bit.
Not being a boxing fan, at all, helped.
Your words are kind. Many people added to my sense of Ali, including my good friend Bill Rhoden who wrote a personal column today: GV

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/07/sports/muhammad-ali-the-champion-who-never-sold-out.html?_r=0

Brendan Buckley

6/7/2016 12:34:59 pm

Thank you, George, for the pieces you have written here and at the NYT. I have felt a sadness in recent days similar to the hollow sense of loss I experienced in December 1980 when John Lennon died. Both he and Ali were high profile, polarizing figures in contentious times. Of similar age, both were unafraid to speak and follow their consciences. Each could be dismissed by those who disagreed with them as uninformed popular figures, but each spoke the truth as they saw it and each possessed wisdom that too many overlooked in their time. For all the turmoil of the 60's that is seen as part of the baby boom experience the spokespeople for those times were from the Depression and WWII years - Ali, Lennon, Dylan, Seeger, Baez, King, Bobby Kennedy. Sadly, the events of recent decades suggest that our boom generation ultimately failed to heed those voices.

George Vecsey

6/7/2016 10:42:53 pm

Brendan, thanks for the comparison to Lennon, my "favorite Beatle." I play his "Watching the Wheels Go Round and Round" on my iPod pretty regularly. Never would have thought of them together, but you have a point. The 60's had a lot of people like that, including RFK, who went down in 1968. I have felt links to that time for moments during the Bernie madness. Best,GV

Alan Rubin link

6/7/2016 01:27:29 pm

Thanks to all for the insight and personal experiences related to Muhammad Ali. It is a rare experience to learn so much about a public figure that I had admired.

Ali had the “strength of one’s convictions”, which is in very short supply around today’s so-called leaders.

Although there was strong resentment against draft dodgers back then, I wonder is a white person of Ali’s stature would have been so vilified.

fred gordon

6/7/2016 07:49:29 pm

Ali was a genius at creating a strong impression.
I was an instructor at City of Chicago's Kennedy-King Junior College (fka Wilson JC) where Muhammad Ali spoke to a full auditorium several months after he was stripped of his title. Excitement was high. Ali complained fully and colloquially about the US government "hounding" him for several minutes.. Then, suddenly, he gripped the sides of the nearby podium, looked around, and asked loudly, "Who's the Champ?" Several, not all, responded "Ali!" Again, Ali demanded "who's the champ?" and then again and again until more than a thousand people were shouting out his name, the room was electrified. Then, just as suddenly, Ali jumped up, did a quick breathtaking shadow boxing, then swept off the stage, followed closely by his entourage, the chamber resounding with passion.

Magnificent and unforgettable.

George Vecsey

6/7/2016 10:43:54 pm

Dear Fred Gordon: Wow, thanks so much for that great vision of Ali.
GV

Elliott Kolker

6/7/2016 10:58:30 pm

Remember when Lennon and Ali crossed Paths?

Fab vs. Greatest: How the Beatles Met Muhammad Ali
Jerry McCulley

(I'm new to this game, and tried to link the following in my comment because I can't seem to pirate the photos. If it doesn't work, I recommend googling up the following: If it screws up the post, please delete.
|
02.27.2008Fab vs. Greatest: How the Beatles Met Muhammad Ali - Gibson
www.gibson.com/.../Fab-vs_-Greatest_-How-the-Beat.aspx
Gibson Guitar Corporation
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjTyrCFtZfNAhVHQFIKHSNDAqcQFggtMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gibson.com%2FNews-Lifestyle%2FFeatures%2Fen-us%2FFab-vs_-Greatest_-How-the-Beat.aspx&usg=AFQjCNHTm3jV06IhsKjKe4fMRrb7PaDEQA
Feb 27, 2008 - The images have become some of the most iconic of the 20th century: A ferociously mugging Muhammad Ali (then still known as Cassius Clay) ...

Muhammad Ali and the Beatles

The images have become some of the most iconic of the 20th century: A ferociously mugging Muhammad Ali (then still known as Cassius Clay) putting some mock whoop-ass on the four Beatles, who good-naturedly oblige by cowering before the fighter. The event has often been celebrated as a de facto summit meeting of the greatest artistic/sports/socio-political figures of their era. Yet, viewed from its proper historical perspective, it was but a chance interaction between two ambitious, promising forces who hadn’t yet conquered their respective worlds, let alone ours.

Indeed, it was a meeting that wasn’t supposed to have happened at all.

Muhammad Ali and the Beatles. It happened on February 18, 1964 in Miami Beach, Florida, where the Beatles were wrapping up their whirlwind first visit to America. In the previous nine days, they’d performed on the Ed Sullivan Show in New York before a record television audience (and taped another program for later broadcast), played concerts at Washington, D.C.’s Coliseum and New York’s Carnegie Hall, then traveled south for their second Sullivan Show appearance at Miami’s Deauville Hotel. With Meet the Beatles and “I Want to Hold Your Hand” dominating the U.S. charts and airwaves, the Beatlemania that had already gripped Britain for a year was in its first weeks of exploding worldwide, rivaling the mass furor Elvis Presley had stirred the previous decade—before pushing the envelope considerably further. But for the next week the Beatles would keep a low profile as they rewarded themselves with a hard-earned vacation in and around Miami.

Cassius Clay, on the other hand, was working his body hard in Miami Beach his mouth even more feverishly. The 1960 Olympic champion had risen steadily through the heavyweight ranks, racking up a 19-0 record with 15 knockouts. But even if his 1963 victories against Doug Jones and Englishman Henry Cooper had been less than spectacular, Clay had earned his shot at the title—and at the menacing Sonny Liston, who’d earned the championship in 1962 by flooring Floyd Patterson in the first round of their title bout.

While Liston trained in the relative splendor of a North Beach community center, Clay went through his paces at the decrepit Fifth Street Gym in what is now South Beach. As was becoming his style, 22-year-old Cassius took delight in needling his opponent, going so far as to take his entourage by bus to Liston’s training headquarters to heckle the champion. Clay’s favorite euphemism for Liston became “big, ugly bear.”

The Beatles—or someone in their entourage—reportedly pushed for a photo-op with heavyweight champion Liston. Fleet St. photographer Harry Benson, who was traveling with the band on their first American trip, promised to set it up. But the grim Liston, even grumpier from his ongoing harassment by Clay, wanted no part of such nonsense. Robert Lipsyte, then a 25-year-old second stringer covering the fight for the New York Times, recalls Liston rebuffing the request by asking, “Who are these little sissies?”

So Benson tried the next best thing, dropping the Beatles off at the Fifth Street Gym for a hastily arranged session with Clay, whose own press agent was eager for publicity. Ticket sales were slow for the upcoming title fight. While Cassius’ few early admirers found his jawboning amusing, most fight fans thought the increasingly irritated Liston would shut his mouth for good.

Even the Beatles weren’t exactly thrilled at the prospect of posing with a 7-to-1 underdog as they tromped up the gym’s decaying steps. They were indeed Fab, and the only one proclaiming Clay “the Greatest” those days was Cassius himself. Even John Lennon reportedly referred to the young challenger at one point as “that loudmouth who’s going to lose.”

Cassius was late arriving, and with Benson staking out good angles in the gym for his photos, the band was getting incre

bruce

6/8/2016 11:01:53 pm

George,

as always,enjoyed your ali stuff.

watched a piece from british TV the other night with foreman, frazier and ali on together. they certainly seemed to have a good time tho ali had obviously started to go downhill physically.

I was about six weeks shy of 14 when clay whupped liston.

beatles and ali.

I was lucky to be alive and the age I was......actually probably the perfect age to get everything out of it. old enough to be able to think somewhat. young enough to be idealistic and open.

I interviewed walter Cronkite once around 1990.

I asked him what the most exciting decade was. I thought he'd say the 40s because of the war and his starting to become known.

instead, without hesitation he said, 'the 60s''

I couldn't understand, even at my young age, why people persisted in calling ali clay for so long.

I watched a bit the other day of ali's fight with Cleveland Williams. it was 1966 and the guy doing the fight was STILLcalling him clay. I didn't like it when I saw it originally. it absolutely infuriated me when I watched it this time.

finally, I didn't think much of ali becoming a muslim with the nation of islam. not that he became muslim but I saw that group as being a kind of perversion of the religion. I guess i'd compare them to the born again gang in the usa who often seem to often do the opposite, it seems to me, of what Christianity is supposed to be about.....ali eventually moved over to the mainstream of the religion.

just looked this over. seems a bit disjointed, but what the hell, eh!

bruce

George Vecsey

6/9/2016 10:56:49 am

Bruce:
Cronkite was right, journalistically -- so much going on, plus he was on the right side about Vietnam.
But there were assassinations -- The Good They Die Young (Dion) -- and a war (I know a West Point combat vet with a very sour view of all of it -- and racial tensions, way beyond Ali's scope, plus or minus.
I remember terrible sadness -- Otis Redding, for goodness' sakes.
But for all that, a sense of adventure and challenge, driving on the Oakland Bay Bridge at night, every car radio playing Light My Fire.
Ali's time.....
GV

bruce

6/9/2016 11:11:40 am

George,

I loved growing up in the sixties. was very aware at the time that it was a vibrant, interesting decade. started in black and white and ended in colour. in Canada we had the blossoming of separatism in Quebec, national medicare, bilingualism and biculturalism commission, finally got our own flag, bobby orr and gordie howe, montreal expos, pierre trudeau, expo '67 in montreal, Canada's centennial, neil young, joni Mitchell, leonard cohen, the last time the Toronto maple leafs won the Stanley cup......if you talked to a French Canadian he/she might , you might get a different view and different cultural landmarks.....

George Vecsey

6/9/2016 03:14:29 pm

Bruce:
Here's a 1969 snapshot of Canada:
Early April, flying from Windsor (Yankee opener in Detroit) to Toronto and on to Montreal for Expos' first home game in Jarry Park.
Woman in next seat from Windsor to Toronto said she loved Montreal, so much fun to visit, whereas her home town of Toronto was stodgy, dead, closed on Sunday, etc.
She was surely right about Montreal -- I loved the city, still do, even with separatistes in action in those days.
But Toronto? When I finally got there, mid-70's, it was blooming, international, food, music, ethnics, you name it. Could that have happened that fast? Or was that just the 60's catching up -- a new age?
Montreal, summer 69 -- Joan Baez in concert, talking about Vietnam and her husband in jail, knowing she had a lot of exiled Yanks in the audience. The 60's....
GV

bruce

6/9/2016 03:35:56 pm

george,
when I was a kid montreal was THE city in Canada.

there was some violence that caused a few deaths by the FLQ in the 60s. then in 1970 a cell of the flq kidnapped and murdered one of 2-3 most important politicians in the provincial government--pierre laporte--and kidnapped the british trade commissioner.

the parti Quebecois won the provincial election in 1976 and many anglos became what became to be known as 401 refugees--the name of the TransCanada highway in ontario. many head offices left montreal.

Toronto boomed and montreal didn't. montreal has come back now, but Toronto is the city. Calgary gained in importance because of the oil industry and Vancouver has done well too.

Toronto used to be known as Toronto the good because it was, essentially, closed on sundays.

incidentally, montreal is supposed to be the second most predominately French speaking city in the world.

Jackie robinson, when he played for the royals, said the only time he was chased by whites with love on their minds was in montreal.

I don't care for Toronto much. i'm about a 45 minute drive and dread it.

enjoy montreal and Quebec city aremy two favourite cities in Canada. a very European vibe especially Quebec city, the capital of la belle province.

I love the regional diversity in Canada. I love that I can go to Quebec and really feel i'm in a completely different environment. feels different in nova scotia, newfoundland, Vancouver, Yellowknife, alberta, prince Edward island

bruce

Gene Palumbo

6/10/2016 02:11:33 pm

I hope George will start a separate post to draw people's attention to this, but for the time being: in today's Times he has a fine column on Gordie Howe.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/11/sports/hockey/gordie-howe-luminary-modesty.html

Brian Savin

6/10/2016 05:31:54 pm

Thanks so very much for this alert to us all, Gene. I started to read and then abruptly stopped. I'm staying in NYC tonight and decided this is something worth waiting for and doing it right! I will go down to the lobby tomorrow morning and pick up an actual newsprint copy of the Times and then I will take it into breakfast and do as I did so many times before. I will turn to the sports section first and look for the Sports of the Times column. I will find a by line reading George Vecsey and I will smile. I can't think of anything more wonderful, stimulating and comforting than having a boiled egg with a George Vecsey column to start the day! Now that's a holiday.
Best
Brian Savin

bruce

6/10/2016 05:47:24 pm

George,

would like to thank you publicly for using my memory of the only time I saw gordie howe play live and in person.

he was going on 43, playing one of his first games back after being significant time with an injury and was amazing. his goal came on probably his third or fourth shift.

most remarkable team athlete in north American team sports history as far I'm concerned. top five in scoring 20 consecutive years in a sport you have to go out every game and PHYSICALLY bang people around...beyond amazing.

bruce

Michael

6/11/2016 07:05:33 am

Thanks to Gene for the heads up! 2 NYTimes columns in one week - great. I became a Rangers fan during the last year of 6 NHL teams. I always feared Howe and his Red Wings. Also love the subtle line, "the greatest number 9 in any North American sport." Very appropriate as the Euros start in France (where many other "#9's" roamed the pitch!). Thanks again George.

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QUOTES
More and More, I Talk to the Dead--Margaret Renkl

NASHVILLE — After my mother died so suddenly — laughing at a rerun of “JAG” at 10 p.m., dying of a hemorrhagic stroke by dawn — I dreamed about her night after night. In every dream she was willfully, outrageously alive, unaware of the grief her death had caused. In every dream relief poured through me like a flash flood. Oh, thank God!
Then I would wake into keening grief all over again.
Years earlier, when my father learned he had advanced esophageal cancer, his doctor told him he had perhaps six months to live. He lived far longer than that, though I never thought of it as “living” once I learned how little time he really had. For six months my father was dying, and then he kept dying for two years more. I was still working and raising a family, but running beneath the thin soil of my own life was a river of death. My father’s dying governed my days.
After he died, I wept and kept weeping, but I rarely dreamed about my father the way I would dream about my mother nearly a decade later. Even in the midst of calamitous grief, I understood the difference: My father’s long illness had given me time to work death into the daily patterns of my life. My mother’s sudden death had obliterated any illusion that daily patterns are trustworthy.
Years have passed now, and it’s the ordinariness of grief itself that governs my days. The very air around me thrums with absence. I grieve the beloved high-school teacher I lost the summer after graduation and the beloved college professor who was my friend for more than two decades. I grieve the father I lost nearly 20 years ago and the father-in-law I lost during the pandemic. I grieve the great-grandmother who died my junior year of college and the grandmother who lived until I was deep into my 40s.
Some of those I grieve are people I didn’t even know. How can John Prine be gone? I hear his haunting last song, “I Remember Everything,” and I still can’t quite believe that John Prine is gone.
-----
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/30/opinion/death-grief-memory.html
Jan. 30, 2023

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