Reviews

Why I Love American Soccer Fans

3/27/2015

Messi. Milner. How do you say "suckah!" in Spanish?

The other day I wrote a column for the Times about Major League Soccer, which stimulated comments on the NYT web site, most reflecting the readers’ knowledge and passion for the sport and the league.

This response only strengthened my point that modern communications – the web and cable TV – have involved American fans with the best soccer in the world, and raised hopes and expectations for MLS.

I’d love to address a few points the readers made:

1. I did not fully represent the fan experience at MLS matches. Excellent comment. I have watched matches on TV and have matches at Red Bull Arena and am well aware that fans have come up with clubs and traditions and chants that can only grow over the years. They have seen the singing and demonstrations of love (and disdain) from the best leagues and want to be just like it (maybe without the nastiness.) The rebellion in New Jersey over the sacking of Mike Petke is one example of loyalty.

2. I did not stress the new stadiums. Another good point. The league has pushed clubs to come up with soccer-specific stadiums, medium sized, so that crowds of 25,000 will seem intimate yet large. Early soccer stadiums were functional but I was in the new Kansas City stadium two years ago and it was state-of-the-art.

3. How could I underestimate Lionel Messi? Fair enough. After watching Messi pick Man City apart, I wrote: “Up to now, I have resisted talk of Lionel Messi among the very greatest players — dismissing him, in a way, as a finisher.” This struck some readers as ludicrous, given his all-time stature in assists as well as goals. Let me add: Messi has earned those statistics by staying with the same club in the same league since he was a kid, but obviously he is a great player. I think I resisted ranking him among Pelé, Cruyff, Maradona, Eusebio, Puskas, Drogba, you name it, because I have seen him limited in some of the biggest World Cup matches. (Not that every great player can win a World Cup; four I mentioned did not.) I did see Didier Drogba carry Chelsea on his broad back in a Champions League final in 2012, and had never seen Messi carry his team the way he did last week. I stand up for my comment – as a mea culpa.

4. I need to subscribe to beIN. My correspondent Joel Berger has virtually ordered me to spring for the upgrade so I can see La Liga. I should. But I am not. My cable bill is huge anyway, and as a humble pensioner I just don’t want it to go any higher. I’ll take my chances watching Champions League and Premiership and World Cup qualifiers.

5. How could you say MLS is “perhaps the eighth- or 10th-best league in the world?” Key word there is “perhaps.” Attendance figures put MLS eighth in the world, but perhaps we can chalk that up to American affluence, American ability to put fannies in seats. (The U.S. still holds the World Cup record, going back to 1994. Somebody remind Sepp Blatter.) After watching Our Lads get burned by Denmark – oh, yeah, leave Nicklas Bendtner alone upfield; the game is almost over, anyway – I’d be willing to concede that a top club in a less-attended league could eat our boys’ lunch. Still, MLS is growing in all ways.

6. You clearly know nothing about soccer. Ouch. A few readers did point out that I wrote a book, “Eight World Cups: My Journey Through the Beauty and Dark Side of Soccer,” that got a lot of attention last year. The paperback edition will be out in a few months, with a new chapter about the 2014 World Cup, which I watched on the tube. I also picked Germany in Cigar Aficionado magazine. (Picked Manuel Neuer to be one of the stars of the Cup; said Spain was worn down.) I know what you are saying: “Dick Tracy!” It is great to be in the electronic age with world soccer fans.

Your comments?

3/27/2015 02:51:43 am

Dude, you do realize you can watch games for free right? It's archived online and you can watch La Liga/EPL/Ligue 1/Serie A/Bundesliga/Eredivisie games on there. The Bein thing just seems like a cop out

George Vecsey

3/27/2015 03:19:55 am

I am way over my head on all this stuff. What's the link?
I need all the help I can get.
thanks, GV

Matt

3/27/2015 03:09:48 am

Saying MLS around the 8th-10th best league in the world is pretty fair.

John Deppen

3/27/2015 03:17:42 am

BeIn has changed my tv viewing habits. I love getting to see world football. Also, NBC's coverage of Premier League (Come On You Spurs!) is superb. I remember listening to BBC World Service on Saturdays back in the '70's for scores (Sterling Albion, nil, Cowdenbeath, one) and game action longing for the day to come when I'd get to watch. Good times are here. Love your writing and devotion to the Beautiful Game.

George Vecsey

3/27/2015 03:22:19 am

Thanks...I started out with the wavy lines on my TV on Sunday trying to see Maradona and Baresi and Baggio -- and Klinsmann! -- on Serie A on Sunday mornings. We've come a long way. But of course I am way behind on all this technology, and I don't want to pay an upgrade to beIN...GV

Jack Lavelle

3/27/2015 07:23:06 am

Hey George (Or should I call you Dude?):
If we're going into the Wayback Machine, the first soccer I can remember seeing was back when I was a youngster of about 12 or so. On Saturday nights, after there was anything at all on the NYC channel spectrum of the day, Channel 11 (WPIX at the time, 'television station of the NY Daily News') broadcast scratchy black-and-white episodes in the trials of a West German club called Schalke. I remember the video was all but impossible to watch, but in 1960 that was just about normal. I never got a handle on the game or its beauty until my twin boys began competing in the '90s, but at least it was sports.

I had a few months a couple of years ago when beIN was THE soccer channel available on my system in Phoenix. I got some first hand looks at CR7, Messi and Iniesta, among other La Liga stars. The channel also broadcast the Serie A and it was Zlatan and the lads from Inter, the recently disgraced franchise of Juventus and the underachievers from Roma. This was great football, some of the best I have seen. All of a sudden, beIN went away, and I began to get the occasional weekend matches on Fox. Finally, NBC stepped up and gave us EPL and UEFA. I have an embarrassment of riches today, and I can actually choose what matches I want to view. Life is good.

Michael Tomeo

3/27/2015 05:34:17 am

Totally agree with you about BeIn! Don't I pay enough already?

The MLS is growing but it's going to take much more time than I'd like. If i were in charge of NYCFC, I'd go younger. That Brek Shea fella sure seemed to eat us alive last weekend. Let the BK Nets serve as a lesson as what not to do.

R Gates

3/27/2015 05:34:21 am

Best leagues in the world can be measured by more than one metric. Often American soccer fans are only watching and following the creme de la creme in Europe rather than seeing what goes on further down the table and outside Uefa CL and Europa Leagues. Evaluating the smaller Allsvenskan and Portugal's Primeira Liga is hardly done by avid soccer fans and much less viewed.

If you want to discuss the most talent top to bottom you may think EPL. Best teams: Barca and Real Mardrid, plus Bayern currently. So if you're looking at the league as a whole MLS fares well around the world. Team values? MLS does fairly well there because the facilities are world class. Talent? The difference between LA Galaxy and Colorado Rapids is not the same gulf as even Chelsea and Leicester City.

I appreciated your article. I can only shake my head at the admirers of just the best at the expense of the base. The place where all these present superstars surely experienced. Lastly, too many sports are enjoyed that are never at world class levels. It's just because they are my team.

david

3/27/2015 07:09:15 am

I am one of the people who commented on your article at the times where you stated you felt messi was not one of the greatest etc. I think your opinion is completely (!) wrong. He is widely considered among European writers to be one of a handful of the finest players to play the game, and also one with an exceedingly broad palette of talents.

It is my impression that this country tends towards the english mode of soccer -- power, speed, 'once more unto the breach' never say die englishness -- and we can see how far that approach has left England behind in international competitions. Spain/Barca has revolutionized soccer in the same way Cruyff/Ajax did, or AC Milan, or Pele/Garrincha's Brazil. Messi has been integral to that (though he doesn't play for Spain, obviously). I realize you write for an American audience, but we are 20 years behind the English, and they are 20 years behind Europe (and falling further behind).

klowdtv dot com carries for a VERY nominal monthly fee (and can be cancelled at any time) french, spanish, german, italian (I think) and mexican etc. leagues. There is no excuse not to be watching those leagues. Barca gets all the press, but Villareal, Sevilla etc. would likely beat all but Chelsea or Man City, and they would no doubt trounce any U.S. team.

Joe

3/27/2015 07:45:34 am

Great article. Comparing "best ever" is always rediculous. Fun but futile. The game changes. It's the MJ v LeBron debate every year and it'll be somone else 20 years from now. Messi is the best player in the world right now. That's The only fact.

The MLS is cool and great for the U.S. and our ability to someday be competitive as a national team, however, to tray and compare it to even minor leagues around the world is still a stretch. Yes there is more parody in the league now but the top team would still get ransacked by anyone in the CL or Europa League and probably by most English, Spanish, German and French tier one teams as well. Going to a game is fun and the atmosphere makes up for the lack of quality on the field. Watching on TV is positively boring unless the playoffs are on (or it's YOUR team). It's the quality of players period. Which is driven by the salary cap. Which is driven by financial interest. Which is driven by investment which still pales in comparison to practically anywhere else in the world where the game is a top flight sport (usually THE).

MLS fans need to be happy we are growing. Happy the league is financially supported. Happy that the world wide view of the league is changing. Happy with what we have. Building a world class league is going to take a very long time. Doesn't matter how much we pretend that's not the case.

All MLS eyes should be on Montreal right now. Winning the CONCACAF CL would be a very big deal for MLS. Not my team but go impact!

Ferran

3/27/2015 08:59:29 am

If your strategy was to attract attention saying you don't consider Messi one of the best players of all times, then I'd understand. In any other case, I wouldn't. You seem to know a lot about World Cups, but if you deliberately ditch watching Barcelona and Real Madrid La Liga and Copa matches, you're lacking a huge important part of soccer, which leads you to seem extremely uninformed (which I don't think is the case). During the last years, Barcelona provided amazing matches, and you should know that Messi didn't won 4 times in a row de Ballon d'Or (something no other soccer player has achieved) just because he stayed at the same team for years. Don't want to pay more for cable? Fine, but do some research before stating things like that.

George Vecsey

3/27/2015 09:54:06 am

Regarding Messi (una vez mas): I have seen a lot of him over the years, lots of Barca in Ch Lg and lots of Argentina. It's a different generation, but I don't think he carries Argentina the way Diego Armando did. And I thought he benefited greatly from Iniesta and all the rest on Barca, with that that great offense.
The fact that I made the admission that I probably underestimated him would seem to give me some room to, umm, learn and grow some more. And I mean, I underestimated him at a very high level to begin with,. Thanks, GV

Mike from Whitestone

3/27/2015 02:25:48 pm

GV (don't expect Deirdre, Nick or I to use that Dude moniker anytime soon...)
You know my soccer consiglieres from West Africa love the banter on Messi vs Renaldo, take a side.
I enjoyed this piece and all the comments. Getting to an NYFC game is on my to do list, might prove more exciting than the other team playing there in da' Bronx starting next week.
Thanks.

George Vecsey

3/28/2015 01:56:13 am

I hear the NYCFC blokes are upset that Teixeira and those other guys are going to tear up the turf at YS.

Label "dude" is an honor. I call people dude under certain circumstances. Deirdre can call me "dude" -- in her lovely lilt. GV

Rich

3/28/2015 04:06:33 am

Thanks Mr.Vecsey for all your insightful comments on the 'beautiful game'. We;re all good to have your experience continually the pondering the game!

MLS of course isn't up there yet as a 'great' international football league. But like all early enterprises in its nascent stages it needs to start somewhere before it rises. And it appears to be perking up
with some potential rivalries that will enhance the game to viewers and supporters.,

Of course a league is only as good as its players. The US already has players who have power, speed and athleticism. I'd say technical ability is next married with a 6th sense in how the game can be played. And perhaps all it needs now is a passion taking hold of our developing players to excel and achieve in the game and to make the sacrifices all great players do to play at a very high level. Hopefully it will come and the US will build its league and players with stature and to rank one day among the world's best.

KL Bob

3/28/2015 06:13:34 pm

Kawabunga, Dude. Here's to a small Billy Buck-type divot that forms in the top of the ninth against the Mets.

George Vecsey

3/29/2015 12:57:01 am

As they said in my old neighborhood, your lips to G-d's ear.

GV

Rich

3/29/2015 04:03:56 am

Just read a piece on Rick Pitino wondering where all the Div 1 college prospects from LI and NY were. In his day he said there were 30. Now there are fewer than 5 a year. In his estimation it's 'affluence' and lacrosse and soccer taking way the players.

Interesting. In my day, 'soccer' was a game played by immigrants. Hardly any American kid got into it. It was like a no-name, no-play sport.

Regarding today maybe Pitino has it right. There are certainly many more options now for athletes. As they say, time and developments in sports and demographics bring on change.

julian Bysouth

3/29/2015 10:26:18 pm

HI,

Have just read your MLS article about the fans being very savvy nowadays.
Well, as a Limey fan Metro / Red Bulls this last 15 years your article was a damn fine read,
I gave up on our EPL some yrs ago, its tainted with big headed crybabies, too much bling anf trendy tattooed players.
But,MLS has it all that I want and has for yrs, i co run a page on Facebook called the ISE, the Irish Scottish and English new york red bulls supporters group. We follow the team from here, and are as avid as any American based fan.
Also, thanks for mentioning Petke in your article, I was gutted when Mike was sacked, and will always hate Ali Curtis,period.
Jessie Marshe is doing a good job.
I am over for the NY Derby may 10 th, where there is bound to be a little European banter btn the supporters.

Yours
Julian Bysouth
Forza Metro

George Vecsey

3/30/2015 01:06:26 am

Dear Julian: Thanks. "A little European banter" could mean cudgels, maces, lances. But I do detect fans cranking up their energy for the rivalry. cheers, GV

John McDermott

3/31/2015 11:09:04 am

George-

-You need to find a way to see the games from Spain. If you don't you are missing out on something important if you want to be knowledgable about the global game today.

-Anyone who says you don't know soccer isn't paying attention and doesn't know Vecsey.

-Messi belongs in the pantheon of the greats, more than CR7. I'm not even sure Cristiano Ronaldo will end up there when all is said and done.

-MLS is, and will remain, an inferior league for many years to come. They can build all the nice little stadiums they want, they can sign up all the big sponsors they want. But until they start paying players better money the majority of MLS players will continue to be those with no other options. The ones with other options will take advantage of them.

-I'm mystified by how "fans" of a club like NYCFC, which was conceived what seems to me like a two weeks ago, can already have such fierce loyalty. I wonder why? I wonder what in the world they were all doing with their lives before. The whole thing seems very contrived to me given the team has no history whatsoever. Who are these people and why are they so eager to give their money and their passion over to what is, in reality, a satellite team of an English club owned by a rich guy from the UAE?.

George Vecsey

3/31/2015 01:24:01 pm

John, I'm just cheap, I guess. Cablevision is getting a lot from me, already. Your point about missing great league play is well taken.

I agree about CR7. He's a beast at times....but cannot carry a team. Messi cannot carry Argentina, for that matter. I guess that's why I have high value for Maradona, one of the most flawed athletes I have encountered, paranoid, self-indulgent, but he carried Napoli and Argentina to great heights.

Instant fans? I guess it's a human need. They have seen soccer fans from EPL or wherever and want that experience.

Hope the work is going well....A presto, GV